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chron comments on Open thread, Oct. 03 - Oct. 09, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion
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What is the best source for this in your view?
Is it your view that past slavery in America still has a large impact on African Americans in the present day U.S.?
It seems obvious to me that it does, and that the effects are wide and deep, as slavery (and Jim Crow) is relatively recent history—We're only a handful of generations from a time where a race of people was enslaved and systemically kept from accumulating wealth and education.
Meh. Maybe. I'd like to believe I'm a reasonable guy. My views on these issues are largely ignorant and I'm open to learning.
So have you actually learned anything from these discussions, in particular, are you willing to admit that the Hillary/Kane analysis of the "implicit biases" of police officers you cited in the OC is wrong?
Yes, though mostly indirectly. I've learned mostly from reading about neoreactionaries elsewhere. SSC, Moldbug, etc. I'm learning a lot. Very interesting. This discussion was the catalyst for my reading. So, thanks!
Yes, I've learned some directly from this discussion.
Mostly I've learned that people will get internet-hostile about certain topics. I was already aware of this, but my interaction in this discussion has re-cemented the fact in my mind. I've received a recent -37 karma lashing (to date). A lot of my downvoted comments were just simple sincere questions—I'd admitted my ignorance and was really seeking to understand these issues better. Maybe I'm just annoying to people to know more about these things and my questions seem obvious? I could understand people being annoyed... (Note: I kinda like a mixed karma bag. Nothing so negative so as to be perceived as any dumber than I am... but anything north of 90% on LW would worry me.)
I don't recall much of what I learned directly about this topic directly from this discussion. (Lumifer made some nice points that helped some things make more conceptual sense to me.) At any rate, what I actually learned about this topic from this direct discussion was a tiny percentage of what I've learned from reading elsewhere.
Also, it appears your account is very new—I'm hypothesizing this fact, along with my recent negative karma streak, along with the stories I've read about others' similar experiences when engaging in such topics...means you are the sock puppet of Eugine Nier. The Eugine Nier. That's super cool! Nice to meet you, Eugine. I've heard so much about you and I'm honored to... have drawn your ire. :)
Yes. Yes, I think there is a bit more to this than I realized.
I still think HRC's point was refreshing in the context of the debate, and potentially useful. But I'm wavering. I still believe people are (1) biased based on race (2) this bias can be unconscious and (3) this unconscious bias' effect would be pronounced in a high stress, high consequence environment where someone needed to act quickly (like what police officers face when they are in close proximity to a suspect). I'm cynical enough about politics not to be excited that HRC's one liner will change anything. Or that she intended it as very much more than a rhetorical judo move in that debate...
Anyway, I'm still thinking and reading about all of this stuff. My current epistemic status is "Oh Shit I'm Soooo Ignorant While Shaking My Head"
A sincere thank you for the interaction.
In particular did you know about the different rates of murder commited by blacks and whites before posting the OC?
Do you have any evidence for this belief? If so, why haven't you presented it anywhere in this thread? Or does "bias" in this case mean that the cops understand the differences in muder rates?
I don't think I knew that particular stat was an empirical fact, though I wasn't surprised by it. My view, generally, was that blacks in America earned less, had higher incarceration rates, etc. The causes interest me.
I believe all three of my points are basically non-controversial, specifically #2 and #3. #1 is true in at least some cases based on many, many experiences I've had. How widespread racial bias is, and to what extent it effects people, is the crux of the matter in my view.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean...
Well, the proximate cause of them having higher incarceration rates is them having higher crime rates. The reason for the higher crime rates isn't directly relevant to the discussion of police "racial bias".
How did this "racial bias" manifest itself? Them acting like they believed blacks were more likely to be criminals than whites. Or even willingness to shoot a black who was running at him and grabing for his gun?
It's not? How do you know?
Police bias seems likes it could be directly related to crime rates (since it's the cops who do the arresting).
Judgements based only on race.
I'm not arguing every white cop who shoots a black person is racist. Not even close. I'm trying to understand what impact implicit racial bias might have in policing.
Good chat. I'm out.
I'm not sure what your trying to say here? Are you saying that police framing black suspects is responsible for the statistics showing blacks being over seven times for likely to commit murder than whites, because that's the only way police bias could be the cause of the crime rates.
Well blacks are over seven times more likely to commit a murder than whites so you've failed to establish that the judgement was irrational.
Well somehow every prominent example sited by the type of people arguing for police being "racially biased" up on investigation turns out to be similarly justified.