Some other random thoughts as they come to me (epistemic status: musing).
1. All the elements in the Rationalsphere are related to some form of rationality, the question is which aspect and why.
Impact and Human are basically the two focuses on instrumental rationality, split loosely along whether they are outward or inward facing. Truthseeking is about epistemic rationality for its own sake.
2. All three focus areas can agree that things are important, but disagree on whether it's terminal or instrumentally valuable.
If you literally had Impact/Human focused group that didn't care about honesty and truth at all, I'd say "that's not a rationality community, no matter how they frame things." But I think we can (and do) have Impact/Human focused groups that see Truthseeking as instrumentally important for those goals.
Whereas pure Truthseeking tends to be like "reality is neat and forming deep models of things is neat, and we were going to do that anyway, and if it so happens that this actually helps someone I guess that's cool."
3. The three focuses are not precisely about values, but about orientation.
The "human" cluster essentially means "I want to focus on me and the people around me", which sometimes means "form good relationships" and sometimes means "be personally successful at my career or craft." The Impact cluster could be about EA type stuff, AI type stuff, or even truthseeking-related stuff like "reform academia" or "improve discourse norms in general society."
I think there's a lot of tension (in particular in EA spaces), between Impact and Truthseeking oriented people. Both sides (in this context) agree that both action and truth are important. But you have something like...
Impact people, who notice that truthseekers a) tend to spend a lot of time talking and not enough doing, and b) believe that actually_doing is the limiting reagent to effective change, and excessive truthseeking-oriented-norms tend to distract from or penalize doing. (For example, encouraging criticism tends to result in people not wanting to try to do things).
vs
Truthseeking people, who notice that lots of people have tried to change things but consistently get things really wrong, and consistently get their epistemics corrupted as organizations mature and get taken over by Exploiter/Parasite/Vaosociopath-types. And the truthseekers see the Rationality/EA alliance as this really rare precious thing that's still young enough not to have been corrupted in the usual way things get intellectually corrupted.
And I think the thing I've been gradually orienting towards over the past 6 months is something like
"Truthseeking and Agency are BOTH incredibly rare and precious and we don't have nearly enough of both of them. If we're fighting over the mindshare of which types of norms are winning out, we're already lost because the current size of the mindshare-pie and associated Truth and Agency skills are not sufficient to accomplish The Things."
(I think the same principle ends up applying to Truthseeker/Human conflicts and Human/Impact conflicts)
If we're fighting over the mindshare of which types of norms are winning out, we're already lost
Yep. And most people will continue doing what fits them better anyway... so the whole debate would mostly contribute to making one group feel less welcome.
Also, I suspect that healthy communities are not homogeneous. While the debates about whether X is better than Y already silently assume that homogeneity is the desired outcome -- we only need to choose the right template for everyone to copy.
[This is the second post in the Project Hufflepuff sequence, which I no longer quite endorse in its original form. But this post is particularly standalone]
I used to use the phrase "Rationality Community" to mean three different things. Now I only use it to mean two different things, which is... well, a mild improvement at least. In practice, I was lumping a lot of people together, many of whom neither wanted to get lumped together nor had much in common.
As Project Hufflepuff took shape, I thought a lot about who I was trying to help and why. And I decided the relevant part of the world looks something like this:
I. The Rationalsphere
The Rationalsphere is defined in the broadest possible sense - a loose cluster of overlapping interest groups, communities and individuals. It includes people who disagree wildly with each other - some who are radically opposed to one another. It includes people who don’t identify as “rationalist” or even as especially interested in “rationality” - but who interact with each other on a semi-regular basis. I think it's useful to be able to look at that ecosystem as a whole, and talk about it without bringing in implications of community.
There is no single feature defining people in the rationalsphere, but there are overlapping habits and patterns of thought. I'd guess that any two people in the cluster share at least one of the following features:
People invested in the rationalsphere seem to have three major motivations:
For some people in the rationalsphere, “Doing a good job at being human” is a thing they’re already doing and don’t feel a need to approach from especially “rationality” flavored perspective, but still use principles (such as goal factoring) gleaned from the overall rationality project.
Others specifically do want to be part of a culture lets them succeed at Project Human that is uniquely “rationalist” - either because they want rationality principles percolating through their entire life, or because they like various cultural artifacts.
II. The Broader "Rationality Community"
Within the Rationalsphere, there is a subset of people that specifically want a community. They also disagree on a lot, but often want some combination of the following:
The overlapping social structures for each focus benefit each other. Here are some examples. (I want to note that I don’t think all of these are unambiguously good. Some might trigger alarm bells, for good reason)
In addition to the “broader rationality community”, there are local groups that have more specific cultures and needs. (For example, NYC has a Less Wrong and Effective Altruism meetup group, which have different cultures both from each other, and from similar groups in Berkeley and Seattle)
This can include both physical-meet-space communities and some of the tighter knit online groups.
Where does Project Hufflepuff fit into this?
I think each focus area has seen credible progress in the past 10 years - both by developing new insights and by getting better at combining useful existing tools. I think we've gotten more and more glimpses of the Something More That's Possible.
At our best, there's a culture forming that is clever, innovative, compassionate, and most all - takes ideas seriously.
But we're often not at our best. We make progress in fits and spurts. And there's a particular cluster of skills, surrounding interpersonal dynamics, that we seem to be systematically bad at. I think this is crippling the potential of all three focus areas.
We've made progress over the past 10 years - in the form of people writing individual blogposts, facebook conversations, dramatic speeches and just plain in-person-effort. This has helped shift the community - I think it's laid the groundwork for something like Project Hufflepuff being possible. But the thing about interpersonal dynamics is that they require common knowledge and trust. We need to believe (accurately) that we can rely on each other to have each other's back.
This doesn't mean sacrificing yourself for the good of the community. But it means accurately understanding what costs you are imposing on other people - and therefore the costs they are imposing on you, and what those norms mean when you extrapolate them community-wide. And making a reflective decision on what kind of community we want to live so we can actually achieve our goals.
Since we don't all share the same goals and values, I expect this not to mean that community overall shifts towards some new set of norms. I'm hoping for individual people to think about the tradeoffs they want to make, and how those will affect others. And I suspect that this will result in a few different clusters forming, with different needs, solving different problems.
In the next post, I will start diving into the grittier details of what I think this requires, and why this is an especially difficult challenge.