If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post, then it goes here.
Notes for future OT posters:
1. Please add the 'open_thread' tag.
2. Check if there is an active Open Thread before posting a new one. (Immediately before; refresh the list-of-threads page before posting.)
3. Open Threads should start on Monday, and end on Sunday.
4. Unflag the two options "Notify me of new top level comments on this article" and "
A question. Would you rather be born and live for thirty years and then be executed, or never be born at all?
To me, the answer depends on how I was going to live those thirty years. Well fed and sheltered while hanging out in a great open space with a small community of peers? That sounds pretty good to me. Locked in a tiny box with no stimulation? Quite possibly not. (I have a really strong desire for my own existence, even in the face of that existence being terrible, but I generally treat that as a weird quirk of my own mind.)
Remember, the choice isn't between living for thirty years before being killed vs living my natural lifespan and dying in bed of old age. Very few people would keep cows as pets. The choice is between a short life that ends when you get killed and not existing in the first place. To be clear, I think preferring to not exist is consistent, it's just not what I would pick.
This is almost certainly Typical Minding again, but if I was going to die I would prefer to die usefully. Maybe heroically saving someone else's life, maybe just donating any serviceable organs and offering whats left to science or medical students. If it was legal and efficient, I wouldn't actually mind being eaten after I died. (I am planning to make extraordinary efforts to prolong my life, but what that means to me is a little odd.)
If it's not about utilitarian ethics, what is it about? Why is it wrong to kill a human in their sleep? For me, killing humans is wrong because then other humans might kill me (Kantian reasons basically, with a bit of Hobbes thrown in =P) as well as because they are like me and will probably enjoy living (utilitarian reasons) and because "thou shalt not kill" is a really good deontological rule that helps people live together. Oh, and I'd probably get arrested and sent to jail. Of those, all of them protect a baby or a severely mentally disabled person, and the only one that protects a cow is the utilitarian reason. Cows aren't going to try and get vengeance for their fallen brother, and no judge will convict me of the murder.
Fair accusation. That said, "suboptimal life" does not equal "not worth living." My life is "suboptimal" and I want to live! There are books to read and people to talk to and science to do, as well as food to eat and sun to bask in and naps to be taken. By being vegan, you are not supporting lives. If everyone in the world went vegan tomorrow (or more realistically if a perfect vat-grown beef substitute was released) what would happen to the animals on a nice free-range cruelty-free farm? I've lived and worked on one of those farms, and trust me, the profit margins involved are nowhere near enough to care for the animals if there wasn't any market for them. Those farms could really use more customers who investigated their standard of care and then spent the extra money to reward the ethical farming practices. I don't know what would make a life "optimal" and therefore acceptable to you, but I suggest you find a farm that agrees with you and giving them your business.
This would, of course, require the will to act and the courage to change.
(Of course, if you would prefer no life to a life cut short, or if you believe there is literally no farm that gives its livestock lives worth living, then we may be at an impasse. I am curious at what makes a life worth living to you, since few lives indeed are optimal.)
Regardless of one's ans... (read more)