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Bound_up comments on Social Insight: When a Lie Is Not a Lie; When a Truth Is Not a Truth - Less Wrong Discussion

7 Post author: Bound_up 11 August 2017 06:28PM

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Comment author: Bound_up 13 August 2017 01:17:55AM 0 points [-]

Some of what Trump says is both emotionally and empirically wrong. The concept of "emotional truth" isn't a carte blanche to claim that anything you want is "true in some way;" it's a different way of communicating, and can be used to deceive as well as inform.

Some things Trump says are empirically wrong, but emotionally true, and those I have some measure of sympathy for.

Comment author: lmn 15 August 2017 12:55:25AM *  1 point [-]

Honestly, I'm not sure how much Scott Adams even believes what he says. I suspect part of it is that his target audience is people for whom "don't worry Trump doesn't actually believe these things, he's just saying them to hypnotize the masses" is less threatening then "actually these things Trump says are true". If you want the latter, I recommend Steve Sailer.

Comment author: ChristianKl 14 August 2017 08:39:59PM *  0 points [-]

I'm at the moment at my 7th seminar of Chris Mulzer who's trained by Richard Bandler. Scott Adams suggest that Trump learned hypnosis from Tony Robbins who was also trained by Richard Bandler.

I understand the kind of lie that Bandler and his students tell and the intellectual groundwork behind them and what those people want to communicate. To me Trump doesn't pattern match with that. It rather pattern matches with psychopath based on a model I build from people who actually have a clinical diagnosis in psychopathy.

I'm trying to pinpoint that difference. Unfortunately, that isn't easy. Especially with an audience that's doesn't have a good mental model about how a hypnotist like Richard Bandler lies.

Comment author: jimmy 15 August 2017 06:09:12PM 0 points [-]

I totally agree that he doesn't look like "trained hypnotist that thinks things through and has a nuanced plan for what he's trying to communicate". Looking at Trump and concluding "don't worry guys, get him in a private room and he'll drop the act and explain exactly how this all makes sense" would be a mistake.

At the same time, what he's doing is effective, and largely for similar reasons. The important difference is that you can't really trust him to be doing anything other than emotional gradient following, and he's a reason to get serious and step up your game to make sure that important things aren't underrepresented, rather than to sit back and trust that things are in the hands of an expert.

Comment author: Bound_up 15 August 2017 12:49:18AM 0 points [-]

I'm actually just starting to look into hypnosis a bit. I found a blog by an LW person at https://cognitiveengineer.blogspot.com/

You have any recommendations? I'm getting enough to tell there's something interesting being described, but not enough to get it quite down pat.

Comment author: ChristianKl 15 August 2017 06:31:34PM 1 point [-]

an LW person

Not just "an person" the author is jimmy towards whom I replied above.

For myself reading literature and hearing audio books didn't give my any skills in the subject. I learned the largest chunk of my skills from Chris Mulzer. I also went to other people and read afterwards about the subject but I'm not an autodidact in it. jimmy on the other hand is an autodidact. In http://lesswrong.com/lw/pbt/social_insight_when_a_lie_is_not_a_lie_when_a/dw9g?context=3 , both I and jimmy consider the strategy of getting Reality Is Plastic: The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis and doing the exercises in it with a willing subject to be a good starting point for developing actual skill.

At the moment there's an idea in my head that it would be possible to create a better course for this learning hypnosis from the beginning than what's out there. If you find someone who wants to practice with you hypnosis in person, I would be willing to do more specific guidance about what to do. Maybe jimmy also wants to pitch in and we can create a kind of course together.

I don't think reading blog posts or forum posts is enough to develop actual skill but if your goal is just information there's the forum http://www.uncommonforum.com/viewforum.php?f=16 where jimmy, myself and a bunch of other people had a few long discussions about hypnosis in the past.

Comment author: jimmy 15 August 2017 06:11:02PM 0 points [-]

After this post of yours I think you might be really interesting to talk to on the subject. Let me know if you want to chat sometime (I'm that LW person mentioned).