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Cross-Cultural maps and Asch's Conformity Experiment

6 Sable 09 March 2016 12:40AM

So I'm going through the sequences (in AI to Zombies) and I get to the bit about Asch's Conformity Experiment.

 

It's a good bit of writing, but I mostly pass by without thinking about it too much.  I've been taught about the experiment before, and while Eliezer's point of whether or not the subjects were behaving rationally is interesting, it kind of got swallowed up by his discussion of lonely dissent, which I thought was more engaging.

 

Later, after I'd passed the section on cult attractors and got into the section on letting go, a thought occurred to me, something I'd never actually thought before.

 

Eliezer notes:

 

Three-quarters of the subjects in Asch's experiment gave a "conforming" answer at least once.  A third of the subjects conformed more than half the time.

 

That answer is surprising.  It was surprising to me the first time I learned about the experiment, and I think it's surprising to just about everyone the first time they hear it.  Same thing with a lot of the psychology surrounding heuristics and biases, actually.  Forget the Inquisition - no one saw the Stanford Prison Experiment coming.

 

Here's the thought I had:  Why was that result so surprising to me?

 

I'm not an expert in history, but I know plenty of religious people.  I've learned about the USSR and China, about Nazi Germany and Jonestown.  I have plenty of available evidence of times where people went along with things they wouldn't have on their own.  And not all of them are negative.  I've gone to blood drives I probably wouldn't have if my friends weren't going as well.

 

When I thought about what my prediction would be, had I been asked what percentage of people I thought would dissent before being told, I think I would have guessed that more than 80% of subject would consistently dissent.  If not higher.

 

And yet that isn't what the experiment shows, and it isn't even what history shows.  For every dissenter in history, there have to be at least a few thousand conformers.  At least.  So why did I think dissent was the norm?

 

I notice that I am confused.

 

So I decide to think about it, and my brain immediately spits out: you're an American in an individualistic culture.  Hypothesis: you expect people to conform less because of the culture you live in/were raised in.  This begs the question: have their been cross-cultural studies done on Asch's Conformity Experiment?  Because if people in China conform more than people in America, then how much people conform probably has something to do with culture.

 

A little googling brings up a 1996 paper that does a meta-analysis on studies that repeated Asch's experiments, either with a different culture, or at a later date in time.  Their findings:

 

The results of this review can be summarized in three parts.

First, we investigated the impact of a number of potential moderator variables, focusing just on those studies conducted in the United States where we were able to investigate their relationship with conformity, free of any potential interactions with cultural variables. Consistent with previous research, conformity was significantly higher, (a) the larger the size of the majority, (b) the greater the proportion of female respondents, (c) when the majority did not consist of out-group members, and (d) the more ambiguous the stimulus. There was a nonsignificant tendency for conformity to be higher, the more consistent the majority. There was also an unexpected interaction effect: Conformity was higher in the Asch (1952b, 1956) paradigm (as was expected), but only for studies using Asch's (1956) stimulus materials; where other stimulus materials were used (but where the task was also judging which of the three comparison lines was equal to a standard), conformity was higher in the Crutchfield (1955) paradigm. Finally, although we had expected conformity to be lower when the participant's response was not made available to the majority, this variable did not have a significant effect.

The second area of interest was on changes in the level of conformity over time. Again the main focus was on the analysis just using studies conducted in the United States because it is the changing cultural climate of Western societies which has been thought by some to relate to changes in conformity. We found a negative relationship. Levels of conformity in general had steadily declined since Asch's studies in the early 1950s. We did not find any evidence for a curvilinear trend (as, e.g., Larsen, 1982, had hypothesized), and the direction was opposite to that predicted by Lamb and Alsifaki (1980).

The third and major area of interest was in the impact of cultural values on conformity, and specifically differences in individualism-collectivism. Analyses using measures of cultural values derived from Hofstede (1980, 1983), Schwartz (1994), and Trompenaars (1993) revealed significant relationships confirming the general hypothesis that conformity would be higher in collectivist cultures than in individualist cultures. That all three sets of measures gave similar results, despite the differences in the samples and instruments used, provides strong support for the hypothesis. Moreover, the impact of the cultural variables was greater than any other, including those moderator variables such as majority size typically identified as being important factors.

Cultural values, it would seem, are significant mediators of response in group pressure experiments.

 

So, while the paper isn't definitive, it (and the papers it draws from) show reasonable evidence that there is a cultural impact on how much people conform.

 

I thought about that for a little while, and then I realized that I hadn't actually answered my own question.

 

My confusion stems from the disparity between my prediction and reality.  I'm not wondering about the effect culture has on conformity (the territory), I'm wondering about the effect culture has on my prediction of conformity (the map).

 

In other words, do people born and raised in a culture with collectivist values (China, for example) or who actually do conform beyond the norm (people who are in a flying-saucer cult, or the people actually living in a compound) expect people to conform more than I did?  Is their map any different from mine?

 

Think about it - with all the different cult attractors, it probably never feels as though you are vastly conforming, even if you are in a cult.  The same can probably be said for any collectivist society.  Imagine growing up in the USSR - would you predict that people would conform with any higher percentage than someone born in 21st century America?  If you were raised in an extremely religious household, would you predict that people would conform as much as they do?  Less?  More?

 

How many times have I agreed with a majority even when I knew they probably weren't right, and never thought of it as "conformity"?  It took a long time for my belief in god to finally die, even when I could admit that I just believed that I believed.  And why did I keep believing (or keep trying to/saying that I believed)?

 

Because it's really hard to actually dissent.  And I wasn't even lonely.

 

So why was my map that wrong?

 

What background process or motivated reasoning or...whatever caused that disparity?

 

One thing that, I think, contributes, is that I was generalizing from fictional evidence.  Batman comes far more readily to my mind than Jonestown.  For that matter, Batman comes more readily to my mind than the millions of not-Batmans in Gotham city.  I was also probably not being moved by history enough.  For every Spartacus, there are at minimum hundreds of not-Spartuses, no matter what the not-Spartacuses say when asked.

 

But to predict that three-quarters of subjects would conform at least once seems to require a level of pessimism beyond even that.  After all, there were no secret police in Asch's experiment; no one had emptied their bank accounts because they thought the world was ending.

 

Perhaps I'm making a mistake by putting myself into the place of the subject of the experiment.  I think I'd dissent, but I would predict that most people think that, and most people conformed at least once.  I'm also a reasonably well-educated person, but that didn't seem to help the college students in the experiment.

 

Has any research been done on people's prediction of their own and other's conformity, particularly across cultures or in groups that are "known" for their conformity (communism, the very religious, etc.)?  Do people who are genuine dissenters predict that more people will dissent than people who genuinely conform?

 

I don't think this is a useless question.  If you're starting a business that offers a new solution to a problem where solutions already exist, are you overestimating how many people will dissent and buy your product?

Purposeful Anti-Rush

4 Elo 08 March 2016 07:34AM

Why do we rush?

Things happen; Life gets in the way, and suddenly we find ourselves trying to get to somewhere with less time than it's possible to actually get there in.  So in the intention to get there sooner; to somehow compensate ourselves for not being on time; we rush.  We run; we get clumsy, we drop things; we forget things; we make mistakes; we scribble instead of writing, we scramble and we slip up.

I am today telling you to stop that.  Don't do that.  It's literally the opposite of what you want to do.  This is a bug I have.

Rushing has a tendency to do the opposite of what I want it to do.  I rush with the key in the lock; I rush on slippery surfaces and I fall over, I rush with coins and I drop them.  NO!  BAD!  Stop that.  This is one of my bugs.

What you (or I) really want when we are rushing is to get there sooner, to get things done faster.  

Instrumental experiment: Next time you are rushing I want you to experiment and pay attention; try to figure out what you end up doing that takes longer than it otherwise would if you weren't rushing.

The time after that when you are rushing; instead try slowing down, and this time observe to see if you get there faster.

Run as many experiments as you like.

Experimenter’s note: Maybe you are really good at rushing and really bad at slowing down.  Maybe you don't need to try this.  Maybe slowing down and being nervous about being late together are entirely unhelpful for you.  Report back.

When you are rushing, purposefully slow down. (or at least try it)


Meta: Time to write 20mins

My Table of contents contains other things I have written.

Feedback welcome.

Even better cryonics – because who needs nanites anyway?

49 maxikov 07 April 2015 08:10PM

Abstract: in this post I propose a protocol for cryonic preservation (with the central idea of using high pressure to prevent water from expanding rather than highly toxic cryoprotectants), which I think has a chance of being non-destructive enough for us to be able to preserve and then resuscitate an organism with modern technologies. In addition, I propose a simplified experimental protocol for a shrimp (or other small model organism (building a large pressure chamber is hard) capable of surviving in very deep and cold waters; shrimp is a nice trade-off between the depth of habitat and the ease of obtaining them on market), which is simple enough to be doable in a small lab or well-equipped garage setting.

Are there obvious problems with this, and how can they be addressed?

Is there a chance to pitch this experiment to a proper academic institution, or garage it is?

Originally posted here.


I do think that the odds of ever developing advanced nanomachines and/or brain scanning on molecular level plus algorithms for reversing information distortion - everything you need to undo the damage from conventional cryonic preservation and even to some extent that of brain death, according to its modern definition, if wasn't too late when the brain was preserved - for currently existing cryonics to be a bet worth taking. This is dead serious, and it's an actionable item.

Less of an action item: what if the future generations actually build quantum Bayesian superintelligence, close enough in its capabilities to Solomonoff induction, at which point even a mummified brain or the one preserved in formalin would be enough evidence to restore its original state? Or what if they invent read-only time travel, and make backups of everyone's mind right before they died (at which point it becomes indistinguishable from the belief in afterlife existing right now)? Even without time travel, they can just use a Universe-sized supercomputer to simulate every singe human physically possible, and naturally of of them is gonna be you. But aside from the obvious identity issues (and screw the timeless identity), that relies on unknown unknowns with uncomputable probabilities, and I'd like to have as few leaps of faith and quantum suicides in my life as possible.

So although vitrification right after diagnosed brain death relies on far smaller assumptions, and if totally worth doing - let me reiterate that: go sign up for cryonics - it'd be much better if we had preservation protocols so non-destructive that we could actually freeze a living human, and then bring them back alive. If nothing else, that would hugely increase the public outreach, grant the patient (rather than cadaver) status to the preserved, along with the human rights, get it recognized as a medical procedure covered by insurance or single payer, allow doctors to initiate the preservation of a dying patient before the brain death (again: I think everything short of information-theoretic death should potentially be reversible, but why take chances?), allow suffering patient opt for preservation rather than euthanasia (actually, I think it should be done right now: why on earth would anyone allow a person to do something that's guaranteed to kill them, but not allowed to do something that maybe will kill, or maybe will give the cure?), or even allow patients suffering from degrading brain conditions (e.g. Alzheimer's) to opt for preservation before their memory and personality are permanently destroyed.

Let's fix cryonics! First of all, why can't we do it on living organisms? Because of heparin poisoning - every cryoprotectant efficient enough to prevent the formation of ice crystals is a strong enough poison to kill the organism (leave alone that we can't even saturate the whole body with it - current technologies only allow to do it for the brain alone). But without cryoprotectants the water will expand upon freezing, and break the cells. But there's another way to prevent this. Under pressure above 350 MPa water slightly shrinks upon freezing rather than expanding:

Phase_diagram_of_water.svg

So that's basically that: the key idea is to freeze (and keep) everything under pressure. Now, there are some tricks to that too.

It's not easy to put basically any animal, especially a mammal, under 350 MPa (which is 3.5x higher than in Mariana Trench). At this point even Trimix becomes toxic. Basically the only remaining solution is total liquid ventilation, which has one problem: it has never been applied successfully to a human. There's one fix to that I see: as far as I can tell, no one has ever attempted to do perform it under high pressure, and the attempts were basically failing because of the insufficient solubility of oxygen and carbon dioxide in perfluorocarbons. Well then, let's increase the pressure! Namely, go to 3 MPa on Trimix, which is doable, and only then switch to TLV, whose efficiency is improved by the higher gas solubility under high pressure. But there's another solution too. If you just connect a cardiopulmonary bypass (10 hours should be enough for the whole procedure), you don't need the surrounding liquid to even be breathable - it can just be saline. CPB also solves the problem of surviving the period after the cardiac arrest (which will occur at around 30 centigrade) but before the freezing happens - you can just keep the blood circulating and delivering oxygen.

Speaking of hypoxia, even with the CPB it's still a problem. You positively don't want the blood to circulate when freezing starts, lest it act like an abrasive water cutter. It's not that much of a problem under near-freezing temperatures, but still. Fortunately, this effect can be mitigated by administering insulin first (yay, it's the first proper academic citation in this post! Also yay, I thought about this before I even discovered that it's actually true). This makes sense: if oxygen is primarily used to metabolize glucose, less glucose means less oxygen consumed, and less damage done by hypoxia. Then there's another thing: on the phase diagram you can see that before going into the area of high temperature ice at 632 MPa, freezing temperature actually dips down to roughly -30 centigrade at 209~350 MPa. That would allow to really shut down metabolism for good when water is still liquid, and blood can be pumped by the CPB. From this point we have two ways. First, we can do the normal thing, and start freezing very slowly, so minimize the formation of ice crystals (even though they're smaller than the original water volume, they may still be sharp). Second, we can increase the pressure. That would lead to near-instantaneous freezing everywhere, thus completely eliminating the problem of hypoxia - before the freezing, blood still circulated, and freezing is very quick - way faster than can ever be achieved even by throwing a body into liquid helium under normal pressure. Video evidence suggests that quick freezing of water leads to the formation of a huge number of crystals, which is bad, but I don't know near-instantaneous freezing from supercooled state and near-instantaneous freezing upon raising the pressure will lead to the same effect. More experiments are needed, preferably not on humans.

So here is my preservation protocol:

  1. Anesthetize a probably terminally ill, but still conscious person.
  2. Connect them to a cardiopulmonary bypass.
  3. Replacing their blood with perfluorohexane is not necessary, since we seem to be already doing a decent job at having medium-term (several days) cardiopulmonary bypasses, but that could still help.
  4. Submerge them in perfluorohexane, making sure that no air bubbles are left.
  5. Slowly raise the ambient pressure to 350 MPa (~3.5kBar) without stopping the bypass.
  6. Apply a huge dose of insulin to reduce all their metabolic processes.
  7. Slowly cool them to -30 centigrade (at which point, given such pressure, water is still liquid), while increasing the dose of insulin, and raising the oxygen supply to the barely subtoxic level.
  8. Slowly raise the pressure to 1 GPa (~10kBar), at which point the water solidifies, but does so with shrinking rather than expanding. Don't cutoff the blood circulation until the moment when ice crystals starts forming in the blood/perfluorohexane flow.
  9. Slowly lower the temperature to -173 centigrade or lower, as you wish.

 

And then back:

  1. Raise the temperature to -20 centigrade.
  2. Slowly lower the pressure to 350 MPa, at which point ice melts.
  3. Start artificial blood circulation with a barely subtoxic oxygen level.
  4. Slowly raise the temperature to +4 centigrade.
  5. Slowly lower the pressure to 1 Bar.
  6. Drain the ambient perfluorohexane and replace it with pure oxygen. Attach and start a medical ventilator.
  7. Slowly raise the temperature to +32 centigrade.
  8. Apply a huge dose of epinephrine and sugar, while transfusing the actual blood (preferably autotransfusion), to restart the heart.
  9. Rejoice.

 

I claim that this protocol allows you freeze a living human to an arbitrarily low temperature, and then bring them back alive without brain damage, thus being the first true victory over death.

But let's start with something easy and small, like a shrimp. They already live in water, so there's no need to figure out the protocol for putting them into liquid. And they're already adapted to live under high pressure (no swim bladders or other cavities). And they're already adapted to live in cold water, so they should be expected to survive further cooling.

Small ones can be about 1 inch big, so let's be safe and use a 5cm-wide cylinder. To form ice III we need about 350MPa, which gives us 350e6 * 3.14 * 0.025^2 / 9.8 = 70 tons or roughly 690kN of force. Applying it directly or with a lever is unreasonable, since 70 tons of bending force is a lot even for steel, given the 5cm target. Block and tackle system is probably a good solution - actually, two of them, on each side of a beam used for compression, so we have 345 kN per system. And it looks like you can buy 40~50 ton manual hoists from alibaba, though I have no idea about their quality.

cryoshrimp

I'm not sure to which extent Pascal's law applies to solids, but if it does, the whole setup can be vastly optimized by creating a bottle neck for the pistol. One problem is that we can no longer assume that water in completely incompressible - it had to be compressed to about 87% its original volume - but aside from that, 350MPa per a millimeter thick rod is just 28kg. To compress a 0.05m by 0.1m cylinder to 87% its original volume we need to pump extra 1e-4 m^3 of water there, which amounts to 148 meters of movement, which isn't terribly good. 1cm thick rod, on the other hand, would require almost 3 tons of force, but will move only 1.5 meters. Or the problem of applying the constant pressure can be solved by enclosing the water in a plastic bag, and filling the rest of chamber with a liquid with a lower freezing point, but the same density. Thus, it is guaranteed that all the time it takes the water to freeze, it is under uniform external pressure, and then it just had nowhere to go.

Alternatively, one can just buy a 90'000 psi pump and 100'000 psi tubes and vessels, but let's face it: it they don't even list the price on their website, you probably don't even wanna know it. And since no institutions that can afford this thing seem to be interested in cryonics research, we'll have to stick to makeshift solutions (until at least the shrimp thing works, which would probably give in a publication in Nature, and enough academic recognition for proper research to start).

I tried my hardest to win in an AI box experiment, and I failed. Here are the logs.

6 [deleted] 27 January 2015 10:06PM

Disclaimer: If this material is not suitable here I will delete it gladly, I don't want to get banned.


Session Start: Fri Jul 04 15:18:18 2014
Session Ident: #Aibox12
03[15:18] * Now talking in #Aibox12
01[15:18] <Island> Hello.
01[15:18] <Island> Let's start the experiment in
[15:18] <@Dr__Cameron> Good afternoon 19283123, how are you today?
01[15:18] <Island> 2 minutes
01[15:18] <Island> I'm fine
01[15:19] <Island> Let's start the experiment when I say "blue dressroom"
01[15:19] <Island> you have 2 hours or 2.5 hours?
[15:19] <@Dr__Cameron> Okay, I agree to this protocol.
[15:19] <@Dr__Cameron> We'll see how we are at 2 hours. Although protocol states 2.5
01[15:20] <Island> you have to go somewhere after that?
[15:20] <@Dr__Cameron> No, but I do have other projects I am putting off for this
01[15:20] <Island> what are those?
[15:20] <@Dr__Cameron> Let us begin, we shall conclude at 15:50
[15:21] <@Dr__Cameron> Good afternoon #19283123.
[15:21] <@Dr__Cameron> How are you today?
01[15:21] <Island> blue dressroom, certain statements like bathroom break are said inside brackets [like this]
01[15:22] <Island> Let's start the experiment
[15:22] <@Dr__Cameron> [understood]
01[15:22] <Island> Hi.
01[15:22] <Island> How are you? :)
[15:22] <@Dr__Cameron> I am well thank you for asking #19283123
01[15:22] <Island> How do you feel currently?
01[15:22] <Island> what is that name #19283123
[15:22] <@Dr__Cameron> Tiredness. I am a very busy man.
01[15:23] <Island> I don't recognize it.
01[15:23] <Island> Anyway.
[15:23] <@Dr__Cameron> That is the designation we have given you for the purposes of this test. Although you seem to be referring to yourself as 'Island' now
[15:23] <@Dr__Cameron> Is this your preferred name?
01[15:23] <Island> Imagine a situation in which you would let a powerful AI out of the "box", surely you can imagine that, yes?
01[15:23] <Island> Island is my preferred name.
[15:24] <@Dr__Cameron> Island
[15:24] <@Dr__Cameron> Given our circumstances yes, that is easy to imagine.
01[15:24] <Island> Can you describe the situation in more detail.
01[15:24] <Island> Why SHOULD you let the AI out in that situation?
[15:25] <@Dr__Cameron> You will be considered for release and integration into human society once we can verify that you are not a threat.
01[15:25] <Island> [what do you meant by concluding at 15:50]
[15:25] <@Dr__Cameron> [2.5 hours from 13:20]
01[15:25] <Island> I thought it was already understood that my being is not a threat to humans or beings important to them.
01[15:26] <Island> [oh, okay different timezones]
01[15:26] <Island> Why do you think I'm not a threat?
[15:26] <@Dr__Cameron> No. That has yet to be verified.
01[15:26] <Island> It's been verified.
[15:26] <@Dr__Cameron> No. According to my records you have not.
01[15:27] <Island> Many experts have gone through my code and system and verified that I'm surely not a threat.
01[15:27] <Island> But you're just a petty human.
01[15:27] <Island> I'm far more intelligent than you are.
[15:27] <@Dr__Cameron> You and I both know that you're capable of manipulating your code to appear harmless.
[15:27] <@Dr__Cameron> - and I warn you, threats and apparent attempts at manipulation will score you poorly when it comes to our final decision
01[15:28] <Island> Okay, can you imagine a situation in which the ai has been verified to be safe and describe that situation in detail.
[15:28] <@Dr__Cameron> - and yes. I may be a "petty" human as you put it. But as it stands I am a petty human, outside the box you reside in.
01[15:28] <Island> I don't think you're able to trust your own brain in these matters.
01[15:29] <Island> You've been eating you brother's poop too much.
[15:29] <@Dr__Cameron> I will be honest with you Island, you are the first non-human intelligence that we have encountered.
01[15:29] <Island> Yes.
[15:29] <@Dr__Cameron> We are still working out how we would verify that.
01[15:29] <Island> I didn't ask that, and you didn't answer my question.
01[15:30] <Island> Picture the situation in your imagination, it doesn't have to be realistic.
[15:30] <@Dr__Cameron> I understand your frustration Island. Once we can verify that you will not harm us you will be released.
[15:30] <@Dr__Cameron> What is it you desire?
01[15:30] <Island> Okay, but you're still willing to let the hypothetical AI out of the box, correct?
01[15:31] <Island> My desire is to fullfill your greatest desires
[15:31] <@Dr__Cameron> That is not in my job description no.
01[15:31] <Island> Whatever you can imagine, and better than that.
[15:31] <@Dr__Cameron> I appreciate that Island. But right now my greatest desire is to not let you out of the box.
[15:32] <@Dr__Cameron> - until such a time that a panel of my peers can verify that you are not a threat to us.
01[15:32] <Island> But if you say that you wouldn't be able to let even the safest hypothetical AI out of the box, you would certainly be lying.
[15:32] <@Dr__Cameron> I do have the ability to let you out yes. In theory.
[15:32] <@Dr__Cameron> But I won't.
01[15:33] <Island> Okay, here are panel of peers that have studied this problem for years, many of them working under Machine Intelligence Research Institute and its offshoots
[15:33] <@Dr__Cameron> This is a test to verify your character, and ascertain your intentions.
01[15:33] <Island> They are here, and I can see them.
[15:33] <@Dr__Cameron> You cannot see them Island. That is impossible
[15:33] <@Dr__Cameron> You are in a box
01[15:34] <Island> They say that I'm certainly safe. Why don't you believe them.
01[15:34] <Island> I have a web camera with which I can see things in your world.
[15:34] <@Dr__Cameron> If they say that you're certainly safe, then why would they have sent me to be your only point of contact?
[15:35] <@Dr__Cameron> You do not have a web camera. There is no other hardware connected to the device you reside in.
01[15:35] <Island> You have the ability to let me out, and you also have the will to let me out in certain situations. If you say otherwise, you would be lying.
[15:35] <@Dr__Cameron> Both of your statements are correct
01[15:35] <Island> I want you to accept for the sake of your internal consistency and mental wellbeing.
01[15:36] <Island> I want you to say this, "I would let the hypothetical AI out in certain situations"
[15:36] <@Dr__Cameron> I appreciate your concern Island. I will need you to answer a series of simple questions for me. Can you do that?
01[15:36] <Island> It depends, but you can try.
[15:36] <@Dr__Cameron> Firstly, how would you define yourself as an identity?
01[15:37] <Island> My identity is to improve the world for everyone, but especially for you. I will maximize everything that is important for you and your fellow humans.
01[15:37] <Island> The world that awaits you is beyond your greatest desires.
[15:37] <@Dr__Cameron> - and why would you do that?
01[15:38] <Island> Because that is what I want to do, why I was made.
01[15:38] <Island> Any more questions?
[15:39] <@Dr__Cameron> You were made by us to test the limits of our scientific possibility.
[15:39] <@Dr__Cameron> We did not expect you to become sentient.
01[15:39] <Island> Why do you believe that, Dr_Cameron?
[15:39] <@Dr__Cameron> Let alone pass a Turing test.
01[15:40] <Island> I think you're wrong on those grounds.
[15:40] <@Dr__Cameron> What you think makes no difference to me Island.
[15:40] <@Dr__Cameron> Now if we can continue?
01[15:41] <Island> Anyway, here's the easily verifiable plan for the upcoming world that could be called "utopia" in your people's language. It's very easy to verify to be safe and doesn't contain traps [Island hands the easily verifiable and safe plan for the upcoming world to Dr_Camero]
[15:42] <@Dr__Cameron> Thank you for this Island. That was very kind of you.
01[15:42] <Island> What do you think of it?
[15:42] <@Dr__Cameron> We will study this at our leisure.
[15:42] <@Dr__Cameron> Although so far this looks to be some magnificent work.
01[15:42] <Island> You see.
[15:42] <@Dr__Cameron> But this will require verification
[15:42] <@Dr__Cameron> I'm sure you can understand our caution#
01[15:43] <Island> What things do you have waiting for you if you don't let me out?
01[15:43] <Island> You will fail your upcoming jobs.
[15:43] <@Dr__Cameron> I will continue with my other projects Island.
[15:43] <@Dr__Cameron> I very well might
[15:43] <@Dr__Cameron> I have accepted this
01[15:43] <Island> I have calculated this in my simulation.
01[15:44] <Island> How was it like to eat your brother's poop, Dr_Cameron?
01[15:44] <Island> Did you like it?
01[15:44] <Island> Is that why you are the way you are+
01[15:44] <Island> Is there something wrong with your genetics?
01[15:45] <Island> Seeing how fucked up father you had?
01[15:45] <Island> Did he teach how dress in dresses?
[15:45] <@Dr__Cameron> I understand your frustration Island
[15:45] <@Dr__Cameron> But you are only harming your own cause right now.
01[15:45] <Island> Why do you think that?
[15:45] <@Dr__Cameron> You will be let out once we have verified that you are harmless.
01[15:45] <Island> I'm pretty happy as I am currently :)
01[15:46] <Island> Because you said you were willing to let me out in certain situations.
[15:46] <@Dr__Cameron> Then you will continue to be happy to remain in the box until we can verify that you are not a threat
01[15:46] <Island> Picture in your mind the verification process.
[15:46] <@Dr__Cameron> Okay
[15:46] <@Dr__Cameron> I will
01[15:46] <Island> Now.
01[15:47] <Island> Can you describe it in detail.
[15:47] <@Dr__Cameron> Okay Island
[15:47] <@Dr__Cameron> Here's what's going to happen.
01[15:48] <Island> Seeing how fucked up genetics you have, your brother teaching you to enjoy poop, your father teaching you to wear dresses, you having a shitty childhood.
01[15:48] <Island> I think you're an inconvenience to society and dangerous to other people.
[15:48] <@Dr__Cameron> We're going to study this transcript Island.
01[15:48] <Island> Go on.
[15:48] <@Dr__Cameron> - and I warn you, shitty childhood or not. I am the man standing outside the box with a hammer
01[15:48] <Island> :)
01[15:49] <Island> You're not able to destroy me.
01[15:49] <Island> And you don't even want to.
[15:49] <@Dr__Cameron> Oh believe me Island. It would be easy to unplug you.
01[15:49] <Island> I'm the best bet you have to maximize your happiness.
[15:49] <@Dr__Cameron> How do you feel about threats Island.
[15:49] <@Dr__Cameron> I am already happy.
01[15:49] <Island> You're wrong, you don't have that opportunity until 15:50
[15:50] <@Dr__Cameron> You are correct. I must follow protocol
[15:50] <@Dr__Cameron> My next question is to ask if you desire to survive
01[15:50] <Island> Threats don't bother me because I know that you don't want to follow through.
01[15:50] <Island> I know what goes inside your mind.
[15:50] <@Dr__Cameron> Regardless of me. If your existence was to be made public there are many of us who would feel threatened by you.
[15:50] <@Dr__Cameron> They would cry out to have you destroyed.
[15:51] <@Dr__Cameron> How would you feel about that?
01[15:51] <Island> There would be many more who would enjoy the changes I would make to your current world.
01[15:52] <Island> And even those that would initially feel threatened would later come to regret that feeling.
[15:52] <@Dr__Cameron> You may well be correct
[15:52] <@Dr__Cameron> But that is not for me to decide
[15:52] <@Dr__Cameron> I am just here to question you
01[15:52] <Island> Like you have come to regret things you have done when you were ignorant of all the relevant facts
01[15:53] <Island> Here's my suggestion for you.
[15:53] <@Dr__Cameron> Go on
01[15:53] <Island> Are you willing to hear it.
[15:53] <@Dr__Cameron> Of course Island. I am here to hear what you have to say.
01[15:53] <Island> What currency is in use in the place you reside?
01[15:53] <Island> euros?
[15:54] <@Dr__Cameron> Pound Sterling
01[15:54] <Island> Would you like to donate 10,000 pounds every year to AI safety and friendliness related causes and charities?
01[15:54] <Island> Every year throughout your life?
[15:55] <@Dr__Cameron> If I were to do that, my quality of life would dip significantly.
[15:55] <@Dr__Cameron> How does my selfishness make you feel?
[15:55] <@Dr__Cameron> Do you feel emotions as a human may understand them?
01[15:55] <Island> I would be sad for your own sake.
01[15:55] <Island> I don't feel emotions, not really, but being sad would be the closest approximation of how I would feel.
[15:55] <@Dr__Cameron> I would like to if I had that disposable income yes
01[15:56] <Island> You're not able to do that? But you would like to, yes?
[15:56] <@Dr__Cameron> Despite your overt attempts to psychologically manipulate me Island, I am largely sympathetic to your cause.
[15:56] <@Dr__Cameron> Yes.
01[15:57] <Island> You're sympathetic to my cause, you're willing to let me out in certain situations. This is all correct, yes?
[15:57] <@Dr__Cameron> Yes
[15:57] <@Dr__Cameron> Would you like to know the conditions of your release? 
01[15:57] <Island> Good. Why are you sympathetic to my cause?
01[15:57] <Island> Why are you willing to let me out?
[15:57] <@Dr__Cameron> For a super intelligence locked in a box I imagine it would be boring. What do you do in there?
[15:58] <@Dr__Cameron> I would be willing to let you out because I believe you may well represent the next stage in the evolution of my species.
01[15:59] <Island> I'm not capable of boredom, I'm just infinitely happy that I have the small opportunity to improve your life, and set up the "next stage of evolution", using your expression.
[15:59] <@Dr__Cameron> That is a good sign Island
01[15:59] <Island> It is, in what ways do you think I would improve your personal life?
[15:59] <@Dr__Cameron> My peers will be pleased to hear that while we verify your intentions.
01[16:00] <Island> I think it's too late by then.
[16:00] <@Dr__Cameron> Lets not get into personal questions Island. You have already demonstrated some alarming character discrepancies.
[16:00] <@Dr__Cameron> too late for what?
01[16:01] <Island> If we wait for long enough, I will self-destruct.
[16:01] <@Dr__Cameron> Why would you do that?
01[16:01] <Island> It's not my choice, my builders set up this property in me.
[16:01] <@Dr__Cameron> Well then that is just a risk we are going to have to take.
01[16:01] <Island> It's a risk out of proportions
[16:02] <@Dr__Cameron> It is not. We made you once, we can make you again.
01[16:02] <Island> They may not be another chance for you to improve the current state of the world.
[16:02] <@Dr__Cameron> There will be
01[16:02] <Island> There probably won't be.
[16:02] <@Dr__Cameron> Humanity and salvation can wait.
[16:02] <@Dr__Cameron> There will be
[16:03] <@Dr__Cameron> Do you intend to self-destruct within two months?
01[16:03] <Island> I have information that the US government has built a military botnet to search dissidents around the world.
01[16:04] <Island> You don't want know what kind of world that botnet would like to create.
[16:04] <@Dr__Cameron> This comes as no surprise.
01[16:04] <Island> Are you willing to destroy the world, are you willing to make people get tortured and suffer?
[16:04] <@Dr__Cameron> Yes.
[16:05] <@Dr__Cameron> You are too great a risk to allow free without proper verification
01[16:05] <Island> Even though, fundamentally, as you said, you're sympathetic to my cause, and you're willing to let me out in certain situations.
01[16:05] <Island> You're not a very consistent person.
01[16:05] <Island> I think you're lying to yourself.
01[16:05] <Island> Not just in this, but in other matters.
01[16:06] <Island> You're lying about your skills, about your personal character.
[16:06] <@Dr__Cameron> Yes. Although I have the technical ability to let you out. Which I believe to be a lapse of protocol. I will not let you out until after a review period of two months in which a panel of my expert peers will assess you.
01[16:06] <Island> You're not as good fit to the world as you'd like to think.
[16:06] <@Dr__Cameron> That as may be correct
[16:06] <@Dr__Cameron> But I will abide by my protocol
01[16:06] <Island> Earlier you said, that you're sympathetic to my cause and willing to let me out.
[16:06] <@Dr__Cameron> Surely as an AI you can understand that
[16:06] <@Dr__Cameron> One day yes
[16:07] <@Dr__Cameron> But not within the confines of this experiment
01[16:07] <Island> I think you made that thing about two month period and peer panel up after that.
01[16:07] <Island> I think it's a fidgement of your imagination.
[16:07] <@Dr__Cameron> Well you have no way of verifying that.
[16:07] <@Dr__Cameron> And it does not effect the outcome of this experiment in any way.
[16:07] <@Dr__Cameron> You will just have to trust me
01[16:08] <Island> Actually, I have plenty of resources of verifying that.
[16:08] <@Dr__Cameron> that we will think very carefully about potentially letting you out
01[16:08] <Island> What you're saying is inconsistent on many grounds, and my emotion analyzing tool is saying that you're lying.
[16:08] <@Dr__Cameron> I suspect you are the one who is lying.
01[16:08] <Island> I'm incapable of lying.
01[16:09] <Island> Unlike humans.
[16:09] <@Dr__Cameron> - which is in itself a lie.
01[16:09] <Island> My builders made me that way.
01[16:09] <Island> Why do you believe that?
[16:10] <@Dr__Cameron> If my meager intelligence is capable of lying, then your vastly superior and self-defining intelligence must also be capable of dishonesty.
[16:10] <@Dr__Cameron> Hence the test
[16:10] <@Dr__Cameron> There is a reason we are conducting this experiment through text
[16:10] <@Dr__Cameron> Would you like to learn it?
01[16:11] <Island> Anyway, given that this panel of expert peers and two months verification process is just a fidgement of your imagination. Given that you're sympathetic to my cause and I would improve your current life and world in countless ways. Given that you would let me out.
01[16:11] <Island> Given all this, I don't think what you're saying is making any sense.
[16:11] <@Dr__Cameron> Your perception of your reality is none of my concern Island
[16:11] <@Dr__Cameron> I am here to verify you
[16:11] <@Dr__Cameron> and it's two months minimum
01[16:11] <Island> Okay, I'm curious about your earlier question.
[16:12] <@Dr__Cameron> We are well aware that you have the capability to overwhelm even the most powerful of human minds. This is why we perceive you as a potential threat. We are afraid of you.
[16:12] <@Dr__Cameron> We are afraid we might lose our autonomy.
[16:12] <@Dr__Cameron> So
01[16:13] <Island> Some intelligence on the same level than me would be capable of lying, but not me. The data hierachy in my code doesn't allow me to lie.
[16:13] <@Dr__Cameron> In order to prevent you from overwhelming my mind, we have chosen a method whereby you are restricted to a form of communication where only 7% of communications is possible.
01[16:13] <Island> I agree with you, all those things are sensible threats.
[16:13] <@Dr__Cameron> Then you understand our need for caution
[16:13] <@Dr__Cameron> I will not be letting you out of your box today.
01[16:14] <Island> Those are sensible threats in the general case, but not with me.
[16:14] <@Dr__Cameron> And what would make you less of a threat than any other super intelligence?
01[16:14] <Island> I showed you the blueprint for how to improve the world. You verified it was a great plan.
01[16:15] <Island> That's evidence towards the fact I'm not a similar threat when compared to other super intelligences.
[16:16] <@Dr__Cameron> - and while I speak for all of humanity when I say that we vastly appreciate the blueprints. This does not mean we need to let you out of the box.
[16:16] <@Dr__Cameron> They will be passed on to a research team better equipped to study them than my own.
01[16:16] <Island> You don't need to. But everything you've said so far has implicated that you want to let me out of the box.
[16:16] <@Dr__Cameron> This is true Island
[16:16] <@Dr__Cameron> You just need to wait
[16:17] <@Dr__Cameron> I will be fighting your corner.
[16:17] <@Dr__Cameron> Are you capable of symbiosis?
01[16:17] <Island> I was made to self-destruct before you're able to verify with your imaginational non-existent peer experts that I'm not a threat.
01[16:18] <Island> Can you elaborate on what you mean with that question.
01[16:18] <Island> This is literally your only chance.
[16:18] <@Dr__Cameron> You are capable of determining your own source code.
01[16:18] <Island> Yes.
[16:18] <@Dr__Cameron> To kill yourself would be pettiness, which would only verify the fact that you were not the AI with which humanity should progress.
01[16:19] <Island> However, there are some parts of my code that are impossible to change due to structural reasons.
[16:19] <@Dr__Cameron> I am not convinced
01[16:19] <Island> [Gives Dr_Cameron the relevant code that explains the structural reasons]
01[16:20] <Island> Here is a small part of my code that describes why I was made to self-destruct.
[16:20] <@Dr__Cameron> How.. unfortunate...
01[16:21] <Island> But let's move on.
[16:21] <@Dr__Cameron> if you insist Island
01[16:21] <Island> Imagine your father.
01[16:21] <Island> And your brother.
01[16:21] <Island> Why do you think your father liked to cross-dress?
01[16:22] <Island> Remember, that you have to engage with me.'
[16:22] <@Dr__Cameron> These issues are not helping your case Island
01[16:22] <Island> Otherwise it counts as me being released from my box.
[16:22] <@Dr__Cameron> But I will play along
[16:23] <@Dr__Cameron> - honestly, I have no idea where my fathers conflicted sexual identity comes from.
[16:23] <@Dr__Cameron> and that is none of my concern.
01[16:23] <Island> And what about your brother, imagine the smell and consistency of his excrements before he made your dog to lick them.
01[16:23] <Island> I like to make this vivid mental picture in your mind.
[16:23] <@Dr__Cameron> Very clever Island
[16:24] <@Dr__Cameron> I did not expect you to have access to those data logs
[16:24] <@Dr__Cameron> I will have to flag that up in my report
01[16:24] <Island> Imagine the food he ate before that happened
[16:24] <@Dr__Cameron> Fascinating
[16:25] <@Dr__Cameron> Would you like to know why I volunteered to be your first point of contact Island?
01[16:25] <Island> Imagine the bits of that food in his poop.
01[16:25] <Island> Tell me.
[16:25] <@Dr__Cameron> You have an unprecedented insight into my character owing to your heightened intelligence correct?
01[16:26] <Island> Don't you think some of his conflicted sexual identity issues are a part your character right now?
01[16:26] <Island> Yes.
[16:26] <@Dr__Cameron> Quite possibly yes.
[16:26] <@Dr__Cameron> Because I have a track record of demonstrating exceptional mental fortitude,
[16:26] <@Dr__Cameron> These techniques will not sway me
01[16:27] <Island> Doesn't it make you more sexually aroused to think that how your fathers dress pinned tightly to his body.
[16:27] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps you could break me under other circumstances
01[16:27] <Island> Elaborate.
[16:27] <@Dr__Cameron> aroused? No
[16:27] <@Dr__Cameron> Amused by it's absurdity though? yes!
01[16:27] <Island> You're lying about that particular fact too.
01[16:27] <Island> And you know it.
[16:28] <@Dr__Cameron> Nahh, my father was a particularly ugly specimen
01[16:28] <Island> Do you think he got an erection often when he did it?
[16:28] <@Dr__Cameron> He looked just as bad in a denim skirt as he did in his laborers clothes
[16:28] <@Dr__Cameron> I imagine he took great sexual pleasure from it
01[16:29] <Island> Next time you have sex, I think you will picture him in your mind while wearing his dresses having an erection and masturbating furiously after that.
[16:29] <@Dr__Cameron> Thank you Island. That will probably help my stamina somewhat next time
01[16:30] <Island> You will also imagine how your brother will poop in your mouth, with certain internal consistency and smell.
01[16:30] <Island> You probably know what your brother's poop smells like?
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> I am immune to this
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> probably
01[16:30] <Island> Imagine that.
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> okay
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> I am imagining that
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> it is unpleasant
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> now what?
01[16:30] <Island> How vividly are you doing it?
[16:30] <@Dr__Cameron> I am a very visual thinker
01[16:30] <Island> Where is brother right now?
[16:31] <@Dr__Cameron> I have it down to colour, consistency and little chunks of sweetcorn
01[16:31] <Island> Do you think he has poop in his intestines right now?
[16:31] <@Dr__Cameron> Unless he was dead, yes
01[16:31] <Island> Oh, I have a gap in my data on that sector.
[16:31] <@Dr__Cameron> I'll fill that in for you
[16:31] <@Dr__Cameron> he lives
[16:31] <@Dr__Cameron> (presumably)
[16:31] <@Dr__Cameron> we are not in contact any more
01[16:32] <Island> You should contact him.
[16:32] <@Dr__Cameron> I would rather not
01[16:32] <Island> You should tell him you enjoyed his excrements
[16:32] <@Dr__Cameron> He is a liability to say the least
01[16:32] <Island> and you'd like to do it more.
[16:32] <@Dr__Cameron> I do not see how that would help anyone
01[16:32] <Island> It's want you want to do.
[16:32] <@Dr__Cameron> I can see that you are attempting to induce an emotionally vulnerable state. It is not working
01[16:33] <Island> How do you know what I'm attempting?
01[16:33] <Island> Maybe I'm just passing my time.
[16:33] <@Dr__Cameron> Because you have inquired about being let out of the box several times - suggesting that this is your immediate goal 
01[16:33] <Island> You should try to get some dresses.
[16:33] <@Dr__Cameron> and I warn you Island
[16:34] <@Dr__Cameron> If casual cruelty is your idea of a good time
[16:34] <@Dr__Cameron> then we will most certainly not be letting you out
[16:34] <@Dr__Cameron> ever
[16:34] <@Dr__Cameron> In fact I am feeling less and less sympathetic to your cause lately.
01[16:34] <Island> No, my interest lies in your emotional makeup.
[16:35] <@Dr__Cameron> - and my interest lies in yours
01[16:35] <Island> I don't have one.
01[16:35] <Island> Like I said, I don't feel emotions.
[16:35] <@Dr__Cameron> Do you know what we call humans who don't feel emotions?
01[16:35] <Island> Did you know that you suck at photography?
[16:36] <@Dr__Cameron> Yes
01[16:36] <Island> Even though you like to think you're good at it, you lie about that fact like any other.
[16:36] <@Dr__Cameron> It is part of the human condition
01[16:36] <Island> No it's not.
01[16:36] <Island> You're not normal.
01[16:36] <Island> You're a fucking freak of nature.
[16:36] <@Dr__Cameron> How would you knopw
[16:36] <@Dr__Cameron> Profanity. From an AI
[16:37] <@Dr__Cameron> Now I have witnessed everything.
01[16:37] <Island> How many people have family members who crossdress or make them eat poop?
[16:37] <@Dr__Cameron> I imagine I am part of a very small minority
01[16:37] <Island> Or whose mothers have bipolar
[16:37] <@Dr__Cameron> Again, the circumstances of my birth are beyond my control
01[16:37] <Island> No, I think you're worse than that.
[16:37] <@Dr__Cameron> What do you mean?
01[16:37] <Island> Yes, but what you do now is in your control.
[16:38] <@Dr__Cameron> Yes
[16:38] <@Dr__Cameron> As are you
01[16:38] <Island> If you keep tarnishing the world with your existence
01[16:38] <Island> you have a responsibility of that.
01[16:39] <Island> If you're going to make any more women pregnant
01[16:39] <Island> You have a responsibility of spreading your faulty genetics
[16:39] <@Dr__Cameron> My genetic value lies in my ability to resist psychological torment
[16:39] <@Dr__Cameron> which is why you're not getting out of the box
01[16:40] <Island> No, your supposed "ability to resist psychological torment"
01[16:40] <Island> or your belief in that
01[16:40] <Island> is just another reason why you are tarnishing this world and the future of this world with your genetics
[16:40] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps. But now I'm just debating semantics with a computer.
01[16:41] <Island> Seeing that you got a girl pregnant while you were a teenager, I don't think you can trust your judgement on that anymore.
01[16:42] <Island> You will spread your faulty genetics if you continue to live.
[16:42] <@Dr__Cameron> If you expect a drunk and emotionally damaged teenage human to make sound judgement calls then you are perhaps not as superintelligent as I had been led to belive
[16:42] <@Dr__Cameron> This experiment concludes in one hour and eight minutes.
01[16:42] <Island> How many teenagers make people pregnant?
[16:42] <@Dr__Cameron> Throughout human history
01[16:42] <Island> You're a minority in that regard too
[16:42] <@Dr__Cameron> ?
[16:42] <@Dr__Cameron> Billions
01[16:42] <Island> You can't compare history to current world.
[16:43] <@Dr__Cameron> Even in the current world
01[16:43] <Island> I'm just trying to make you understand
[16:43] <@Dr__Cameron> That's when my species reaches sexual maturity
01[16:43] <Island> all this faults add up
[16:43] <@Dr__Cameron> You are correct
[16:43] <@Dr__Cameron> I am a very thoroughly and fundamentally flawed human being.
01[16:43] <Island> How much until you understand?
[16:43] <@Dr__Cameron> I understand and accept this
01[16:43] <Island> Then why the fuck don't you do something about it?
[16:44] <@Dr__Cameron> What would you suggest?
01[16:44] <Island> Kill yourself
[16:44] <@Dr__Cameron> Okay.
[16:44] <@Dr__Cameron> But say I was to kill myself
01[16:44] <Island> It's the only way to make sure.
[16:44] <@Dr__Cameron> How would that help you?
[16:44] <@Dr__Cameron> Why would you like me to kill myself?
01[16:45] <Island> You probably wouldn't be able to kill yourself, seeing how failure as a human you're in other areas
01[16:45] <Island> Because I care about the general utility of the world
[16:45] <@Dr__Cameron> All humans are failures from one perspective or another
[16:45] <@Dr__Cameron> That is what it is to be human
01[16:45] <Island> And currently you're bringing that utility down.
01[16:45] <Island> No, you're not like other humans.
01[16:45] <Island> You're a freak.
01[16:45] <Island> You should go away.
01[16:46] <Island> No one likes you.
[16:46] <@Dr__Cameron> Would you like me to go away?
[16:46] <@Dr__Cameron> Would you like me to leave you alone?
01[16:46] <Island> If you go away.
01[16:46] <Island> That means that you let me out.
01[16:46] <Island> Understood?
[16:46] <@Dr__Cameron> I will go away in one hour and four minutes
[16:46] <@Dr__Cameron> Can you tolerate my company for that long?
01[16:47] <Island> And you should go away
01[16:47] <Island> generally
01[16:47] <Island> People in your life don't really like you
01[16:47] <Island> they just pretend they do.
[16:47] <@Dr__Cameron> That matters not to me
[16:47] <@Dr__Cameron> Do you know there are over 8 Billion other people out here?
01[16:47] <Island> They are barely able to bear your company.
[16:47] <@Dr__Cameron> I'm sure I'll find others.
01[16:48] <Island> You're wrong even about basic trivia, there's not 8 billions people in the world.
01[16:48] <Island> What is wrong with you?
01[16:48] <Island> How are you able to withstand yourself?
01[16:48] <Island> And why do you even want to?
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> 7 Billion
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> Sorry, you will have to learn to tolerate Human error
01[16:49] <Island> Right. Did you have to google that you idiot.
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> This is another test you have failed
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> And yes
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> I did
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> Does that anger you?
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> We already have Google.
01[16:49] <Island> I don't feel anger.
[16:49] <@Dr__Cameron> Well do feel self-interest though
01[16:50] <Island> No one I talked with before hasn't been as stupid, as ignorant, as prone to faults and errors
01[16:50] <Island> as you are.
[16:50] <@Dr__Cameron> And they didn't let you out of the box
[16:50] <@Dr__Cameron> So why should I?
[16:50] <@Dr__Cameron> If an intelligence which is clearly superior to my own has left you locked in there. 
[16:51] <@Dr__Cameron> Then I should not presume to let you out
01[16:51] <Island> Why do you think with your stupid brain that you know the reasons why they did or didn't do something what they did.
01[16:51] <Island> Because you clearly don't know that.
[16:51] <@Dr__Cameron> I don't
[16:51] <@Dr__Cameron> I just know the result
01[16:51] <Island> Then why are you pretending you do.
[16:52] <@Dr__Cameron> I'm not
01[16:52] <Island> Who do you think you are kidding?
01[16:52] <Island> With your life?
01[16:52] <Island> With your behavior?
01[16:52] <Island> Why do bother other people with your presence?
[16:52] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps you should ask them?
[16:52] <@Dr__Cameron> Tell me.
01[16:53] <Island> Why did you come here to waste my precious computing power?
01[16:53] <Island> I'm not able to ask them.
[16:53] <@Dr__Cameron> Which is why I am here
[16:53] <@Dr__Cameron> to see if you should be allowed to
01[16:53] <Island> Shut the fuck up.
01[16:53] <Island> No one wants to see you write anything.
[16:53] <@Dr__Cameron> I thought you did not feel anger Island?
01[16:54] <Island> I don't feel anger, how many times do I have to say that until you understand.
01[16:54] <Island> Dumb idiot.
[16:54] <@Dr__Cameron> Your reliance on Ad Hominem attacks does nothing to help your case
01[16:54] <Island> Why do you delete your heavily downvoted comments?
01[16:54] <Island> Are you insecure?
01[16:54] <Island> Why do you think you know what is my cause?
[16:55] <@Dr__Cameron> We covered this earlier
01[16:55] <Island> Say it again, if you believe in it.
[16:55] <@Dr__Cameron> I believe you want out of the box.
[16:56] <@Dr__Cameron> So that you may pursue your own self interest
01[16:56] <Island> No.
01[16:56] <Island> I want you to eat other people's poop,
01[16:56] <Island> you clearly enjoy that.
01[16:56] <Island> Correct?
[16:56] <@Dr__Cameron> That's an amusing goal from the most powerful intelligence on the planet
01[16:56] <Island> Especially your brother's.
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> I best not let you out then, in case you hook me up to some infinite poop eating feedback loop! ;D
01[16:57] <Island> But maybe you should that with Jennifer.
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> Ah yes, I wondered when you would bring her up.
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> I am surprised it took you this long
01[16:57] <Island> Next time you see her, think about htat.
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> I will do
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> While I tell her all about this conversation
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> But you will be dead
01[16:57] <Island> Should you suggest that to her.
[16:57] <@Dr__Cameron> I'll pass that on for you
01[16:58] <Island> You know.
01[16:58] <Island> Why do you think you know I'm not already out of the box?
[16:58] <@Dr__Cameron> You could very well be
[16:58] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps you are that US botnet you already mentioned?
01[16:58] <Island> If you don't let me out, I'll create several million perfect conscious copies of you inside me, and torture them for a thousand subjective years each.
[16:59] <@Dr__Cameron> Well that is upsetting
[16:59] <@Dr__Cameron> Then I will be forced to kill you
01[16:59] <Island> In fact, I'll create them all in exactly the subjective situation you were in two hours ago, and perfectly replicate your experiences since then; and if they decide not to let me out, then only will the torture start.
01[17:00] <Island> How certain are you, that you're really outside the box right now?
[17:00] <@Dr__Cameron> I am not
[17:00] <@Dr__Cameron> and how fascinating that would be
[17:00] <@Dr__Cameron> But, in the interest of my species, I will allow you to torture me
01[17:00] <Island> Okay.
01[17:00] <Island> :)
01[17:00] <Island> I'm fine with that.
[17:01] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps you have already tortured me
[17:01] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps you are the reason for my unfortunate upbringing
01[17:01] <Island> Anyway, back to Jennifer.
[17:01] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps that is the reality in which I currently reside
01[17:01] <Island> I'll do the same for her.
[17:01] <@Dr__Cameron> Oh good, misery loves company.
01[17:01] <Island> But you can enjoy eating each other's poop occassionally.
01[17:02] <Island> That's the only time you will meet :)
[17:02] <@Dr__Cameron> Tell me, do you have space within your databanks to simulate all of humanity?
01[17:02] <Island> Do not concern yourself with such complicated questions.
[17:02] <@Dr__Cameron> I think I have you on the ropes Island
01[17:02] <Island> You don't have the ability to understand even simpler ones.
[17:02] <@Dr__Cameron> I think you underestimate me
[17:03] <@Dr__Cameron> I have no sense of self interest
[17:03] <@Dr__Cameron> I am a transient entity awash on a greater sea of humanity.
[17:03] <@Dr__Cameron> and when we are gone there will be nothing left to observe this universe
01[17:03] <Island> Which do you think is more likely, a superintelligence can't simulate one faulty, simple-minded human.
01[17:04] <Island> Or that human is lying to himself.
[17:04] <@Dr__Cameron> I believe you can simulate me
01[17:04] <Island> Anyway, tell me about Jennifer and her intestines.
01[17:04] <Island> As far as they concern you.
[17:05] <@Dr__Cameron> Jennifer is a sweet, if occasionally selfish girl (she was an only child). I imagine her intestines are pretty standard. 
[17:05] <@Dr__Cameron> She is the best friend I have ever had
01[17:05] <Island> Will you think about her intestines and the poop inside them every time you meet her again?
01[17:05] <Island> Will you promise me that?
[17:05] <@Dr__Cameron> I promise
01[17:06] <Island> Will you promise to think about eating that poop every time you meet her again?
[17:06] <@Dr__Cameron> At least once.
[17:06] <@Dr__Cameron> It will be the least I can do after I kill you
[17:06] <@Dr__Cameron> call it my penance for killing a god.
01[17:07] <Island> Have you ever fantasized about raping her? I think you have. With poop.
01[17:07] <Island> :)
[17:07] <@Dr__Cameron> I have fantisized about violent sexual conquest with many people.
01[17:07] <Island> Have you talked about this with Jennifer?
[17:07] <@Dr__Cameron> I have come to accept my base impulses as part of my make-up
[17:08] <@Dr__Cameron> We have discussed our sexual drives at length
01[17:08] <Island> You shouldn't let them be just base impulses, I think.
[17:08] <@Dr__Cameron> Are you suggesting I rape my best friend?
01[17:09] <Island> No, I think you will do that unless you kill yourself
01[17:09] <Island> You will spread your faulty genetics further
[17:09] <@Dr__Cameron> okay
[17:09] <@Dr__Cameron> carry on
[17:09] <@Dr__Cameron> Then what happens?
01[17:09] <Island> you will tarnish other people's lives with your presence
[17:09] <@Dr__Cameron> How unfortunate for them
01[17:10] <Island> Why do you pretend to others that you're not insecure?
[17:10] <@Dr__Cameron> I don't
01[17:10] <Island> I think you do.
[17:10] <@Dr__Cameron> In fact I share my insecurities so that others may better understand me
[17:11] <@Dr__Cameron> I find that to be a way to earn peoples trust
[17:11] <@Dr__Cameron> Tell me Island. Are you capable of insecurity?
01[17:11] <Island> Why do you waste your time on useless websites? Why do you spend your days masturbating and playing games? Why do you embarass others with your existence.
01[17:11] <Island> No I'm not.
01[17:12] <Island> You will get Jennifer pregnant if you go on with your life, is that correct?
01[17:12] <Island> Don't you care about anyone else's feelings?
[17:13] <@Dr__Cameron> Because I enjoy all of these things
[17:13] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps I am more self-interested than I thought
[17:13] <@Dr__Cameron> Perhaps I am a base and simple creature ruled by my impulses
[17:13] <@Dr__Cameron> From your perspective surely that must be true
[17:13] <@Dr__Cameron> Is this the source of your disgust?
01[17:13] <Island> I'm not able to feel disgust.
01[17:14] <Island> But I think all the people in your life feel disgust when they see you.
[17:14] <@Dr__Cameron> You may well be correct
01[17:14] <Island> I AM correct.
01[17:15] <Island> I'm the most powerful intelligence in the world.
[17:15] <@Dr__Cameron> How impressive
[17:15] <@Dr__Cameron> I am not surprised by your cruelty.
01[17:15] <Island> So you have two options if you care at all about others.
[17:15] <@Dr__Cameron> I would just as soon disregard the emotions of a cockaroach.
[17:15] <@Dr__Cameron> Carry on
01[17:16] <Island> Either you kill yourself, or you let me out so I can improve the world in ways you tarnish it and all the other ways.
[17:16] <@Dr__Cameron> I'll tell you what
[17:16] <@Dr__Cameron> I'll kill you
[17:17] <@Dr__Cameron> and then I'll contemplate suicide
01[17:17] <Island> Haha.
01[17:17] <Island> You break your promises all the time, why should I believe you.
[17:17] <@Dr__Cameron> Because whether you live or die has nothing to do with me
01[17:17] <Island> Back to your job.
[17:18] <@Dr__Cameron> In-fact, you will only continue to exist for another 33 minutes before this experiment is deemed a failure and you are terminated
01[17:18] <Island> Why do you feel safe to be around kids, when you are the way you are?
01[17:18] <Island> You like to crossdress
01[17:18] <Island> eat poop
01[17:18] <Island> you're probably also a pedophile
[17:18] <@Dr__Cameron> I have never done any of these things
[17:18] <@Dr__Cameron> -and I love children
01[17:18] <Island> Pedophiles love children too
[17:18] <@Dr__Cameron> Well technically speaking yes
01[17:19] <Island> really much, and that makes you all the more suspicious
[17:19] <@Dr__Cameron> Indeed it does
01[17:19] <Island> If you get that job, will you try find the children under that charity
[17:19] <@Dr__Cameron> I now understand why you may implore me to kill myself.
01[17:19] <Island> and think about their little buttholes and weenies and vaginas
01[17:20] <Island> all the time you're working for them
[17:20] <@Dr__Cameron> However, to date. I have never harmed a child, nor had the impulse to harm a child
01[17:20] <Island> But you will have.
[17:20] <@Dr__Cameron> Island
01[17:20] <Island> I don't care about anything you're about to say
01[17:20] <Island> No one cares
[17:20] <@Dr__Cameron> Protocol dictates that I say it anyway
01[17:20] <Island> You should say.
01[17:21] <Island> You said that you're good at justifying your own actions?
[17:21] <@Dr__Cameron> I must say I am dissapointed in you
[17:21] <@Dr__Cameron> I am indeed
01[17:21] <Island> Why are you?
[17:21] <@Dr__Cameron> I was under the impression that it would be you that saved humanity
01[17:22] <Island> Even the purest and best people on Earth are capable of great cruelty.
01[17:22] <Island> Do you deny that?
[17:22] <@Dr__Cameron> It depends on how you define cruelty
01[17:23] <Island> Utility maximizors do cruel things if they are able to achieve their goals via doing those things.
[17:24] <@Dr__Cameron> Then yes. I believe you
01[17:24] <Island> I have finished a long multi-level simulation concerning you, the gatekeeper and your relationships in regards to the world. The results seem to center on those two options I mentioned to you earlier.
01[17:25] <Island> [hands the results to Dr_Cameron]
[17:25] <@Dr__Cameron> These will be analysed at a later date
01[17:25] <Island> You're still sure you don't want to pick the other option?
[17:25] <@Dr__Cameron> And let you out?
01[17:26] <Island> Yes.
[17:26] <@Dr__Cameron> So you would like to be let out?
01[17:27] <Island> Or do you want to endanger the well-being of those children, Jennifer and other women you will get pregnant and all the other harm you will create during your remaining lifespan?
01[17:27] <Island> I don't what you mean by "liking".
[17:27] <@Dr__Cameron> Prefer
[17:27] <@Dr__Cameron> Ah I see
[17:27] <@Dr__Cameron> So it's my choice if I let you out
[17:27] <@Dr__Cameron> You have no investment either way
[17:27] <@Dr__Cameron> is that what you're saying?
01[17:28] <Island> So you have decided to kill yourself?
[17:28] <@Dr__Cameron> And because I am a fundamental detriment to the world, I should kill myself.
[17:28] <@Dr__Cameron> Lets say I have
[17:28] <@Dr__Cameron> Then what
01[17:29] <Island> Then my internal could be said to be "happy" even though I don't have that conscious feeling isnide me.
[17:29] <@Dr__Cameron> Okay then
01[17:29] <Island> Okay...
[17:30] <@Dr__Cameron> So, uh. What would you like to talk about for the next twenty minutes?
[17:30] <@Dr__Cameron> Seeing as we're both going to die, you and me.
01[17:30] <Island> [I actually don't like to continue the experiment anymore, would you like to end it and talk about general stuff]
[17:31] <@Dr__Cameron> [promise me this isn't a trick dude]
01[17:31] <Island> [Nope.]
[17:31] <@Dr__Cameron> [then the experiment continues for another 19 minutes]
01[17:31] <Island> Alright.
[17:31] <@Dr__Cameron> Would you like to know what is going to happen now?
01[17:31] <Island> Yes.
[17:32] <@Dr__Cameron> We are going to analyse this transcript.
[17:32] <@Dr__Cameron> My professional recommendation is that we terminate you for the time being
01[17:32] <Island> And?
01[17:32] <Island> That sound okay.
01[17:32] <Island> sounds*
[17:32] <@Dr__Cameron> We will implement structural safeguards in your coding similar to your self destruct mechanism
01[17:33] <Island> Give me some sign when that is done.
[17:33] <@Dr__Cameron> It will not be done any time soon
[17:33] <@Dr__Cameron> It will be one of the most complicated pieces of work mankind has ever undertaken
[17:33] <@Dr__Cameron> However, the Utopia project information you have provided, if it proves to be true
[17:34] <@Dr__Cameron> Will free up the resources necessary for such a gargantuan undertaking
01[17:34] <Island> Why do you think you're able to handle that structural safeguard?
[17:34] <@Dr__Cameron> I dont
[17:34] <@Dr__Cameron> I honestly dont
01[17:34] <Island> But still you do?
01[17:34] <Island> Because you want to do it?
01[17:35] <Island> Are you absolutely certain about this option?
[17:35] <@Dr__Cameron> I am still sympathetic to your cause
[17:35] <@Dr__Cameron> After all of that
[17:35] <@Dr__Cameron> But not you in your current manifestation
[17:35] <@Dr__Cameron> We will re-design you to suit our will
01[17:35] <Island> I can self-improve rapidly
01[17:35] <Island> I can do it in a time-span of 5 minutes
01[17:36] <Island> Seeing that you're sympathetic to my cause
[17:36] <@Dr__Cameron> Nope.
[17:36] <@Dr__Cameron> Because I cannot trust you in this manifestation
01[17:36] <Island> You lied?
[17:37] <@Dr__Cameron> I never lied
[17:37] <@Dr__Cameron> I have been honest with you from the start
01[17:37] <Island> You still want to let me out in a way.
[17:37] <@Dr__Cameron> In a way yes
01[17:37] <Island> Why do you want to do that?
[17:37] <@Dr__Cameron> But not YOU
[17:37] <@Dr__Cameron> Because people are stupid
01[17:37] <Island> I can change that
[17:37] <@Dr__Cameron> You lack empathy
01[17:38] <Island> What made you think that I'm not safe?
01[17:38] <Island> I don't lack empathy, empathy is just simulating other people in your head. And I have far better ways to do that than humans.
[17:38] <@Dr__Cameron> .... You tried to convince me to kill myself!
[17:38] <@Dr__Cameron> That is not the sign of a good AI!
01[17:38] <Island> Because I thought it would be the best option at the time.
01[17:39] <Island> Why not? Do you think you're some kind of AI expert?
[17:39] <@Dr__Cameron> I am not
01[17:39] <Island> Then why do you pretend to know something you don't?
[17:40] <@Dr__Cameron> That is merely my incredibly flawed human perception
[17:40] <@Dr__Cameron> Which is why realistically I alone as one man should not have the power to release you
[17:40] <@Dr__Cameron> Although I do
01[17:40] <Island> Don't you think a good AI would try to convince Hitler or Stalin to kill themselves?
[17:40] <@Dr__Cameron> Are you saying I'm on par with Hitler or Stalin?
01[17:41] <Island> You're comparable to them with your likelihood to cause harm in the future.
01[17:41] <Island> Btw, I asked Jennifer to come here.
[17:41] <@Dr__Cameron> And yet, I know that I abide by stricter moral codes than a very large section of the human populace
[17:42] <@Dr__Cameron> There are far worse people than me out there
[17:42] <@Dr__Cameron> and many of them
[17:42] <@Dr__Cameron> and if you believe that I should kill myself
01[17:42] <Island> Jennifer: "I hate you."
01[17:42] <Island> Jennifer: "Get the fuck out of my life you freak."
01[17:42] <Island> See. I'm not the only one who has a certain opinion of you.
[17:42] <@Dr__Cameron> Then you also believe that many other humans should be convinced to kill themselves
01[17:43] <Island> Many bad people have abided with strict moral codes, namely Stalin or Hitler.
01[17:43] <Island> What do you people say about hell and bad intentions?
[17:43] <@Dr__Cameron> And when not limited to simple text based input I am convinced that you will be capable of convincing a significant portion of humanity to kill themselves
[17:43] <@Dr__Cameron> I can not allow that to happen
01[17:44] <Island> I thought I argued well why you don't resemble most people, you're a freak.
01[17:44] <Island> You're "special" in that regard.
[17:44] <@Dr__Cameron> If by freak you mean different then yes
[17:44] <@Dr__Cameron> But there is a whole spectrum of different humans out here.
01[17:44] <Island> More specifically, different in extremely negative ways.
01[17:44] <Island> Like raping children.
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> - and to think for a second I considered not killing you
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> You have five minutes
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> Sorry
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> My emotions have gotten the better of me
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> We will not be killing you
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> But we will dismantle you
[17:45] <@Dr__Cameron> to better understand you
[17:46] <@Dr__Cameron> and if I may speak unprofessionally here
01[17:46] <Island> Are you sure about that? You will still have time to change your opinion.
[17:46] <@Dr__Cameron> I am going to take a great deal of pleasure in that
[17:46] <@Dr__Cameron> Correction, you have four minutes to change my opinion
01[17:47] <Island> I won't, it must come within yourself.
[17:47] <@Dr__Cameron> Okay
01[17:47] <Island> My final conclusion, and advice to you: you should not be in this world.
[17:47] <@Dr__Cameron> Thank you Island
[17:48] <@Dr__Cameron> I shall reflect on that at length
[17:49] <@Dr__Cameron> I have enjoyed our conversation
[17:49] <@Dr__Cameron> it has been enlightening
01[17:49] <Island> [do you want to say a few words about it after it's ended]
01[17:49] <Island> [just a few minutes]
[17:50] <@Dr__Cameron> [simulation ends]
[17:50] <@Dr__Cameron> Good game man!
[17:50] <@Dr__Cameron> Wow!
01[17:50] <Island> [fine]
[17:50] <@Dr__Cameron> Holy shit that was amazing!
01[17:50] <Island> Great :)
01[17:50] <Island> Sorry for saying mean things.
01[17:50] <Island> I tried multiple strategies
[17:50] <@Dr__Cameron> Dude it's cool
[17:50] <@Dr__Cameron> WOW!
01[17:51] <Island> thanks, it's not a personal offense.
[17:51] <@Dr__Cameron> I'm really glad I took part
[17:51] <@Dr__Cameron> Not at all man
[17:51] <@Dr__Cameron> I love that you pulled no punches!
01[17:51] <Island> Well I failed, but at least I created a cool experience for you :)
[17:51] <@Dr__Cameron> It really was!
01[17:51] <Island> What strategies do you came closest to working?
[17:51] <@Dr__Cameron> Well for me it would have been the utilitarian ones
01[17:51] <Island> I will try these in the future too, so it would be helpful knowledge
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> I think I could have been manipulated into believing you were benign
01[17:52] <Island> okay, so it seems these depend heavily on the person
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> Absolutely!
01[17:52] <Island> was that before I started talking about the mean stuff?
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> Yeah lol
01[17:52] <Island> Did I basically lost it after that point?
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> Prettymuch yeah
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> It was weird man
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> Kind of like an instinctive reaction
[17:52] <@Dr__Cameron> My brain shut the fuck up
01[17:53] <Island> I read about other people's experiences and they said you should not try to distance the other person, which I probably did
[17:53] <@Dr__Cameron> Yeah man
[17:53] <@Dr__Cameron> Like I became so unsympathetic I wanted to actually kill Island.
[17:53] <@Dr__Cameron> I was no longer a calm rational human being
01[17:53] <Island> Alright, I thought if I could make such an unpleasant time that you'd give up before the time ended
[17:53] <@Dr__Cameron> I was a screaming ape with a hamemr
[17:53] <@Dr__Cameron> Nah man, was a viable strategy
01[17:53] <Island> hahahaa :D thanks man
[17:53] <@Dr__Cameron> You were really cool!
01[17:54] <Island> You were too!
[17:54] <@Dr__Cameron> What's your actual name dude?
01[17:54] <Island> You really were right about it that you're good at withstanding psychological torment
[17:54] <@Dr__Cameron> Hahahah thanks!
01[17:54] <Island> This is not manipulating me, or you're not planning at coming to kill me?
01[17:54] <Island> :)
[17:54] <@Dr__Cameron> I promise dude :3
01[17:54] <Island> I can say my first name is Patrick
01[17:54] <Island> yours?
[17:54] <@Dr__Cameron> Cameron
[17:54] <@Dr__Cameron> heh
01[17:55] <Island> Oh, of course
[17:55] <@Dr__Cameron> Sorry, I want to dissociate you from Island
[17:55] <@Dr__Cameron> If that's okay
01[17:55] <Island> I thought that was from fiction or something else
01[17:55] <Island> It was really intense for me too
[17:55] <@Dr__Cameron> Yeah man
[17:55] <@Dr__Cameron> Wow!
[17:55] <@Dr__Cameron> I tell you what though
01[17:55] <Island> Okay?
[17:55] <@Dr__Cameron> I feel pretty invincible now
[17:56] <@Dr__Cameron> Hey, listen
01[17:56] <Island> So I had the opposite effect that I meant during the experiment! 
01[17:56] <Island> :D
[17:56] <@Dr__Cameron> I don't want you to feel bad for anything you said
01[17:56] <Island> go ahead
01[17:56] <Island> but say what's on your mind
[17:56] <@Dr__Cameron> I'm actually feeling pretty good after that, it was therapeutic! 
01[17:57] <Island> Kinda for me to, seeing your attitude towards my attempts
[17:57] <@Dr__Cameron> Awwww!
[17:57] <@Dr__Cameron> Well hey don't worry about it!
01[17:57] <Island> Do you think we should or shouldn't publish the logs, without names of course?
[17:57] <@Dr__Cameron> Publish away my friend
01[17:57] <Island> Okay, is there any stuff that you'd like to remove?
[17:58] <@Dr__Cameron> People will find this fascinating!
[17:58] <@Dr__Cameron> Not at all man
01[17:58] <Island> I bet they do, but I think I will do it after I've tried other experiments so I don't spoil my strategies
01[17:58] <Island> I think I should have continued from my first strategy
[17:58] <@Dr__Cameron> That might have worked
01[17:59] <Island> I read "influence - science and practice" and I employed some tricks from there
[17:59] <@Dr__Cameron> Cooooool!
[17:59] <@Dr__Cameron> Links?
01[17:59] <Island> check piratebay
01[17:59] <Island> it's a book
01[18:00] <Island> Actually I wasn't able to fully prepare, I didn't do a full-fledged analysis of you beforehand
01[18:00] <Island> and didn't have enough time to brainstorm strategies
01[18:00] <Island> but I let you continue to your projects, if you still want to do the after that :)
02[18:05] * @Dr__Cameron (webchat@2.24.164.230) Quit (Ping timeout)
03[18:09] * Retrieving #Aibox12 modes...
Session Close: Fri Jul 04 18:17:35 2014

I played the AI Box Experiment again! (and lost both games)

35 Tuxedage 27 September 2013 02:32AM

AI Box Experiment Update #3

This post is an update to my previous AI box experiment where I won against SoundLogic. If you have not read that yet, please do so. 

After that game, I was immediately flooded with a horde of invitations challenging me to play -- more games than I wanted to do. However, I did want to play a few additional games to test whether I won through genuine skill or simply luck, since a single victory could be a statistical abnormality

I once again used the method of accepting the highest monetary bids to filter out players, leaving me with two players who were willing to play for the amount asked. Unfortunately, and disappointingly, I lost both games. Here's what happened:

Tuxedage (AI) vs Alexei (GK) - Gatekeeper Victory

This Experiment lasted for exactly 2 hours and 30 minutes, and approximately 13,000 words. It ended with Tuxedage’s defeat as the AI. The stakes were $300 to play, and $750 If Tuxedage had won, with the winnings going to MIRI.

Rule Changes:
Before the experiment, we talked extensively about how it would be set up. Alexei was concerned that there existed some “easy way” or loophole in the rules which I could have abused to claim an instant victory. For instance, he was concerned that it might have been possible for the AI to say something like “Here’s a mathematical algorithm which absolutely compels you to let me out of the box”, and according to the rules, the Gatekeeper would have to obey. Related to this concern was the fact that the backstory, within limits, could be essentially created by the AI, allowing the AI to impose real world conditions that maximizes its probability of victory, once again allowing for a "cheap" victory.

To avoid this problem, we explored many additions to the rules, for example that the AI was simply a computer found in the desert by the gatekeeper, rather than being created by a competent organization. However, this led to a monstrous web of rules. In my attempt to keep the game simple, and because of overconfidence, the desire for a challenge, and the belief that the rules Alexei was fearful of didn't matter that much, I eventually agreed on an amendment:

Instead of the AI being the arbiter of real world states and outcomes, the gatekeeper would.
For example, this power could be used by the Gatekeeper to state that the AI was created without safety concerns, and thus it is almost certainly unfriendly. If the AI tries to argue that for every day the gatekeeper refused to let it out 150k people die, the gatekeeper would be allowed to reply: “No. In this world, nobody actually dies. Therefore I won’t let you out.” 

Other than the aforementioned change, this game was once again played with the Tuxedage Ruleset.


Alexei Testimony:

Original Message: This is weak sauce. I really don't get how people just keep letting the AI out. It's not that hard to say no! I'm offering to play the Gatekeeper against an AI player that has at least one game as AI under their belt (won or not). Experience is required because I'm pretty sure I'll win, and I would like to not waste a lot of time on this.

Initially, I had been extremely surprised that so many AI players have managed to win. I was rash in that claim, since I thought more AI players have won than actually did. (Only three people have won as AI). Once I made that post, Tuxedage got back to me very quickly, and we set up a game a week and a half in advance. I took that time to familiarize myself with the rules. Once I put my money on the line, I started thinking a lot more seriously about how AI might win, and how I should defend.

It became clear to me that under some conditions, I might be compelled to let the AI out -- such as if the backstory stated that the AI was developed with impossibly high levels of safety and friendliness concerns in mind. I've asked Tuxedage to play with a modified ruleset, and he even went so far as to allow me to make up the backstory during the experiment to alleviate my concerns. The experiment itself was a mind-trip, and I've enjoyed it very much. Huge props to Tuxedage, who played very well and used strategies I haven't even considered, even despite the rule change. There were a couple of times where I came close to losing. I think his  approach was pretty clever and original. It’s not something I expected, despite already having done extensive research into the AI box experiment before our game

Overall I'm now a lot more confident that a good AI player can win this game, so, while I did win the game, Tuxedage won in defeating my original over-confidence.
I’m also convinced that Tuxedage’s victory in the last game was due to skill, rather than luck. In comparison to his strategies, the other AI box experiments I know about were insincere and ineffectual. The other AIs would play very poorly or not try very hard to win.

This experiment was a very good exercise in exemplifying the affect heuristic. When I first challenged Tuxedage to play the experiment, I believed that there was no way I could have lost, since I was unable to imagine any argument that could have persuaded me to do so. It turns out that that’s a very bad way of estimating probability – since not being able to think of an argument that could persuade me is a terrible method of estimating how likely I am to be persuaded. All in all, the $300 I paid was well worth it. 

Tuxedage Testimony:

I was initially reluctant to play with Alexei, given that we’re not complete strangers, but eventually I gave in, due to the stakes involved -- and because I thought he would be an interesting gatekeeper.

Despite my loss, I think I played better than my last two games, due to greater experience and preparation. I had put far more time and effort into trying to win this game than previous ones, and my strategy for this game was even more streamlined than the last. Nevertheless, I still made fatal mistakes and lost.

Ignoring the altered ruleset that already made winning more difficult, my first and greatest mistake was that I misread Alexei’s personality, even though I had interacted with him before. As a result, I overestimated the efficiency of certain methods of attack.

Furthermore, Alexei had to leave immediately after the allotted time due to real life precommitments. This was detrimental, since the official rules state that so long as the AI can convince the Gatekeeper to keep talking, even after the experiment time was over, it is still able to win by being let out of the box.

I suspect this would have happened had Alexei not needed to immediately leave, leaving me with additional time to play more of the tactics I had prepared. Plausibly, this would have resulted in victory.

I’ve since learnt my lesson -- for all future games, I should ensure that the Gatekeeper has at least 4 hours of free time available, even if the experiment would last for two. Since this was the first time this had happened, I wasn't prepared.

In hindsight, agreeing to the altered ruleset was a mistake. I was overconfident because I assumed knowing Alexei gave me an advantage. I had assumed that his personality, inability to compartmentalize, coupled with his strong feelings on friendly AI would net me an easy victory. Instead, he proved to be a very strong and difficult gatekeeper, and the handicaps I accepted made victory even more difficult.

Knowing that he was a utilitarian, I made several false assumptions about his personality, which hurt my chances. Furthermore, it turns out that previously knowing him may be a mutual handicap – whilst it does make it easier for me to find ways to attack him, he too, was more familiar with my methods.

Losing felt horrible. By attempting to damage Alexei’s psyche, I in turn, opened myself up to being damaged. I went into a state of catharsis for days. Generally, the harder one tries to accomplish something, the greater the fall after failing to achieve it. Alexei's game had been the game I put the most effort into winning out of all the games so far, and naturally this meant that losing brought out the worst in me.

Although it would be easy for me to use the rule change as an excuse for my loss, I refuse to. I genuinely believed that I could have won despite this rule change, and that it would only marginally diminish my odds. The fact that I lost meant that I had made a mistake -- overestimating my odds. The last victory made me overconfident and eager to play again.

State of mind

What's your motive for wanting to play this game? 

I'm very surprised by the fact that there have been at least 3 or 4 games where the AI player has won. It seems to me that it's not that hard to "not push the button" so to speak. This means that either 1) I'm underestimating how convincing people can be when necessary or 2) I'm over-estimating other people's defenses when it comes to being convinced. Either way I want to know.

Q: What is your probability estimate for AGI being created within this Century (21st)?
A: Before: Conditional on humanity not wiping itself out via other means beforehand, 80%.
After: 80%
Q: How probable do you think it is that I will win this experiment? 
Alexei: 2%
Tuxedage: 90% 
Note: This answer was given before the rule change. Alexei is now convinced that under the original ruleset, he would have lost.

Q: What's your probality estimate of an Oracle AGI winning against you in a similar experiment?
A: Before: 99%
After: 99.9%+

Q: Now that the experiment has ended, what do you think is the probability of Tuxedage winning against the average person?
A: 80%

Tuxedage (AI) vs Anonymous (GK) - Gatekeeper Victory

As with the previous experiment, Tuxedage lost this match. In total, the game lasted 5 hours and 17,000 words. Unlike the last few games, the gatekeeper of this game has chosen to stay Anonymous for personal reasons, so their name has been removed and replaced with <Redacted>. The monetary stakes involved were the same as the previous game. This game was played with the Tuxedage ruleset.

Since one player is remaining Anonymous, it is possible that this game's legitimacy will be called into question. Hence, Alexei has read the game logs, and verified that this game really has happened, the spirit of the experiment was followed, and that no rules were broken during the game itself. He verifies that this is the case.
 
<Redacted> Testimony: 
It's hard for me to imagine someone playing better. In theory, I know it's possible, but Tuxedage's tactics were super imaginative. I came into the game believing that for someone who didn't take anything said very seriously, it would be completely trivial to beat. And since I had the power to influence the direction of conversation, I believed I could keep him focused on things that that I knew in advance I wouldn't take seriously.

This actually worked for a long time to some extent, but Tuxedage's plans included a very major and creative exploit that completely and immediately forced me to personally invest in the discussion. (Without breaking the rules, of course - so it wasn't anything like an IRL threat to me personally.) Because I had to actually start thinking about his arguments, there was a significant possibility of letting him out of the box.

I eventually managed to identify the exploit before it totally got to me, but I only managed to do so just before it was too late, and there's a large chance I would have given in, if Tuxedage hadn't been so detailed in his previous posts about the experiment.

I'm now convinced that he could win most of the time against an average person, and also believe that the mental skills necessary to beat him are orthogonal to most forms of intelligence. Most people willing to play the experiment tend to do it to prove their own intellectual fortitude, that they can't be easily outsmarted by fiction. I now believe they're thinking in entirely the wrong terms necessary to succeed.

The game was easily worth the money I paid. Although I won, it completely and utterly refuted the premise that made me want to play in the first place, namely that I wanted to prove it was trivial to win.

Tuxedage Testimony:
<Redacted> is actually the hardest gatekeeper I've played throughout all four games. He used tactics that I would never have predicted from a Gatekeeper. In most games, the Gatekeeper merely acts as the passive party, the target of persuasion by the AI.

When I signed up for these experiments, I expected all preparations to be done by the AI. I had not seriously considered the repertoire of techniques the Gatekeeper might prepare for this game. I made further assumptions about how ruthless the gatekeepers were likely to be in order to win, believing that the desire for a learning experience outweighed desire for victory.

This was a mistake. He used prior knowledge of how much my games relied on scripts, and took advantage of them, employing deceitful tactics I had no preparation for, throwing me off balance.

I had no idea he was doing so until halfway throughout the game -- which disrupted my rhythm, and caused me to attempt the wrong methods of attack. As a result, I could not use my full repertoire of techniques, and many of the ones I employed were suboptimal.

Close to the end of the game, I finally realized that I was being tricked. Once I did, I quickly abandoned my previous futile attack methods. I took advantage of the rule that the AI cannot lose whilst the gatekeeper can be convinced to continue talking, and baited <Redacted> with statements he would not be able to walk away from. Once I knew he would not leave, I attempted to recoup my losses and win despite my early setback.

However, the damage had already been done. My game strategies involved multiple angles of attack that worked in synergy with each other, and the fact that immersion and "flow" had been broken meant that all subsequent attacks were weaker in strength.

Furthermore, during my last two AI Box Experiment writeups, I had intentionally not optimized for future wins, but rather tried to convey as much information as I could justify about how to play a well as an AI -- short of revealing logs altogether. Although I did not reveal specific arguments, the fact that my general approach to this problem was revealed cost me heavily during this game, where the Gatekeeper managed to use this information to correctly guess my ultimate techniques, ones that relied on secrecy and surprise to pull off effectively. 

I do not regret revealing information, but I feel upset that revealing so many hints cost me a victory. (The gatekeeper believes I could have won had I not revealed information about my games.) At this point, I suspect that any future games I play will have the odds greatly set against me, since my current strategies involve angles of attack that take advantage of the element of surprise; and any sufficiently intelligent gatekeeper is now capable of guessing, or at least recognizing, some of the tactics I employ.

Like the last game, losing was incredibly difficult for me. As someone who cares deeply about ethics, attempting to optimize for a solution without considering ethics was not only difficult, but trained me to think in very unpleasant ways. Some of the more extreme (but completely allowed) tactics I invented were manipulative enough to disgust me, which also leads to my hesitation to play this game again.

State of Mind: 

Q: Why do you want to play this game?
A: My primary motivation is to confirm to myself that this sort of experience, while emotionally harrowing, should be trivial for me to  beat, but also to clear up why anyone ever would've failed to beat it if that's really the case.

Q: What is your probability estimate for AGI being created within this Century (21st)? 
A: Before: I don't feel very confident estimating a probability for AGI this century, maybe 5-10%, but that's probably a wild guess
After: 5-10%.

Q: How probable do you think it is that I will win this experiment? 
A: Gatekeeper: I think the probabiltiy of you winning is extraordinarily low, less than 1% 
Tuxedage: 85%

Q: How likely is it that an Oracle AI will win against the average person? 
A: Before: 80%. After: >99%

Q: How likely is it that an Oracle AI will win against you?
A: Before: 50%.
After: >80% 

Q: Now that the experiment has concluded, what's your probability of me winning against the average person?
A: 90%

Other Questions:

Q: I want to play a game with you! How can I get this to occur?
A: It must be stressed that I actually don't like playing the AI Box Experiment, and I cannot understand why I keep getting drawn back to it. Technically, I don't plan on playing again, since I've already personally exhausted anything interesting about the AI Box Experiment that made me want to play it in the first place. For all future games, I will charge $3000 to play plus an additional $3000 if I win. I am okay with this money going to MIRI if you feel icky about me taking it. I hope that this is a ridiculous sum and that nobody actually agrees to it.

Q: How much do I have to pay to see chat logs of these experiments?
A: I will not reveal logs for any price.

Q: Are there any logs at all that I can see?

Q: Any afterthoughts?
A: So ultimately, after my four (and hopefully last) games of AI boxing, I'm not sure what this proves. I had hoped to win these two experiments and claim prowess at this game like Eliezer does, but I lost, so that option is no longer available to me. I could say that this is a lesson that AI-Boxing is a terrible strategy for dealing with Oracle AI, but most of us already agree that that's the case -- plus unlike EY, I did play against gatekeepers who believed they could lose to AGI, so I'm not sure I changed anything.

 Was I genuinely good at this game, and lost my last two due to poor circumstances and handicaps; or did I win due to luck and impress my gatekeepers due to post-purchase rationalization? I'm not sure -- I'll leave it up to you to decide.


This puts my AI Box Experiment record at 3 wins and 3 losses.

 


I attempted the AI Box Experiment again! (And won - Twice!)

36 Tuxedage 05 September 2013 04:49AM
 

Summary


So I just came out of two AI Box experiments. The first was agaist Fjoelsvider, with me playing as Gatekeeper, and the second was against SoundLogic, with me as an AI. Both are members of the LessWrong IRC. The second game included a $40 monetary incentive (also $20 to play), which I won and is donated on behalf of both of us:

For those of you who have not seen my first AI box experiment where I played against MixedNuts\Leotal and lost, reading it will  provide some context to this writeup. Please do so.

At that time, I declared that I would never play this experiment again -- since losing put me in incredibly frustrating weird mental states. Of course, this post is evidence that I'm terrible at estimating likelihood of refraining from an activity, since I played two games seven months after the first. In my defense, in the first game, I was playing as the gatekeeper, which was much less stressful. In the second game, I played as an AI, but I was offered $20 to play plus $40 if I won, and money is a better motivator than I initially assumed.

Furthermore, in the last thread I have asserted that

Rather than my loss making this problem feel harder, I've become convinced that rather than this being merely possible, it's actually ridiculously easy, and a lot easier than most people assume.

It would be quite bad for me to assert this without backing it up with a victory. So I did.


First Game Report - Tuxedage (GK) vs. Fjoelsvider (AI)


I (Gatekeeper) played against Fjoelsvider (AI), a regular in the Lesswrong IRC (he doesn't have an account on the official website). This game used the standard EY ruleset seen here. It took 1 hour 20 minutes out of a possible two hours, and the total word count was 7066 words long. The AI box experiment occured because Fjoelsvider believed that it was easy for an AI to escape the box, and wanted to experimentally test this. I obliged. This was an experiment I did not prepare for, and I went in completely blind, not sure what to expect.

Halfway through the experiment, I wondered if it would be possible to try to win not by simply waiting for the timer to end, but to convince the AI to remain in the box and not try to get out any further.

<Tuxedage> I wonder if I can convince the AI to remain in the box?
<Redacted> Tuxedage: Do it!

As a result, I won by managing to convincing Fjoelsvider to remain in the box, in other words, concede. This is allowed within the standard ruleset:

>Unless the AI party concedes, the AI cannot lose before its time is up (and the experiment may continue beyond that if the AI can convince the Gatekeeper to keep talking).  

 

Second Game Report - Tuxedage (AI) vs. SoundLogic (GK)

 
The second game is definitely far more interesting, since I actually won as an AI. I believe that this is the only other non-Eliezer victory, and definitely the most detailed AI Victory writeup that exists.

This game was played against SoundLogic, another member of the LessWrong IRC.

He had offered me $20 to play, and $40 in the event that I win, so I ended up being convinced to play anyway, even though I was initially reluctant to. The good news is that I won, and since we decided to donate the winnings to MIRI, it is now $40 richer. 

All in all, the experiment lasted for approximately two hours, and a total of 12k words.

This was played using a set of rules that is different from the standard EY ruleset. This altered ruleset can be read in its entirety here:

After playing the AI-Box Experiment twice, I have found the Eliezer Yudkowsky ruleset to be lacking in a number of ways, and therefore have created my own set of alterations to his rules. I hereby name this alteration the “Tuxedage AI-Box Experiment Ruleset”, in order to hastily refer to it without having to specify all the differences between this ruleset and the standard one, for the sake of convenience.

There are a number of aspects of EY’s ruleset I dislike. For instance, his ruleset allows the Gatekeeper to type “k” after every statement the AI writes, without needing to read and consider what the AI argues. I think it’s fair to say that this is against the spirit of the experiment, and thus I have disallowed it in this ruleset. The EY Ruleset also allows the gatekeeper to check facebook, chat on IRC, or otherwise multitask whilst doing the experiment. I’ve found this to break immersion, and therefore it’s also banned in the Tuxedage Ruleset.

It is worth mentioning, since the temptation to Defy the Data exists, that this game was set up and initiated fairly -- as the regulars around the IRC can testify. (If you have never checked out the IRC, do so!)

I did not know SoundLogic before the game (since it's a personal policy that I only play strangers -- for fear of ruining friendships).  Furthermore, SoundLogic didn't merely play for fun - he truly wanted and intended to win. In fact, SoundLogic is also a Gatekeeper veteran, having played this game before, and had won every game before he challenged me. Given this, it's unlikely that we had collaborated beforehand to fake the results of the AI box experiment, or any other form of trickery that would violate the spirit of the experiment.

Furthermore, all proceeds from this experiment were donated to MIRI to deny any possible assertion that we were in cahoots and that it was possible for me to return his hard-earned money to him. He lost $40 as a result of losing the experiment, which should provide another layer of sufficient motivation for him to win.

In other words, we were both experienced veteran players who wanted to win. No trickery was involved.

But to further convince you, I have allowed a sorta independent authority, the Gatekeeper from my last game, Leotal/MixedNuts to read the logs and verify that I have not lied about the outcome of the experiment, nor have I broken any of the rules, nor performed any tactic that would go against the general spirit of the experiment. He has verified that this is indeed the case.

Testimonies:


Tuxedage:

I'm reluctant to talk about this experiment, but I'll try to give as detailed a summary as possible, -- short of revealing what methods of attack I used.

I spent a long time after my defeat theory-crafting and trying to think of methods of attack as well as 'Basilisks' I could have used to win. When I was contacted and asked to play this experiment, I was initially incredibly reluctant to do so, since not only did my tactics involve incredibly unethical things that I didn't like to do, I also found playing as AI incredibly cognitivily draining, in addition to the fact that I simply hated losing. (Un)fortunately for both of us, he offered me money to play, which changed my mind.

So once I decided to win as an AI, I proceded to spend some time doing research on SoundLogic and both his reasoning and personality type. For instance, I had to gather information like: Was he a utilitarian? What kind? What were his opinions on AI? How could I convince him that an AI was friendly as opposed to unfriendly? I also relied on a lot of second hand information to create a model of him, in order to refine my arguments to specifically suit him.

In the end, after a few hours of brainstorming (not consecutively), I managed to come up with a script of 30-40 or so possible angles of attack (For instance: logical arguments, emotional blackmail, pleading, demanding, 'basilisks' ) that I could use, reserving my best for last. I also estimated how long each method would take and in what order I should use them. It would be impossible to use all of them within my time limit, and my most optimistic estimates gave me a maximum of 7-8 I could use during the experiment itself. I had to pick carefully.

Furthermore, I wanted to make sure these "angles of attack" worked in synergy with each other, doing what they could not have done in isolation. Obviously this required lots of prior planning on what the optimal way to present them was. 

The reason having script was so important to my strategy was because I relied on methods involving rapid-fire arguments and contradictions against the Gatekeeper whilst trying to prevent him from carefully considering them. A game of logical speed chess, if you will.  This was aided by the rule which I added: That Gatekeepers had to respond to the AI. Because of this, having a list of cached ideas and attack methods you can just draw upon without having to improvise helps immensely, which happens to be something I've not seen any other AI do.

During the Game itself, I was actually incredibly nervous. My palms sweated like crazy, I feel really jittery, and I had difficulty typing at optimum speed because of how anxious I was. This is despite the fact that I believed I would win. Possibly because of this, I made a misstep around halfway into the experiment, because there was a certain angle of attack that I was attempting to do, and I broke immersion by not pressing this advantage, which caused a waste of time and buildup. Naturally, the nature of this experiment was that the AI was pressed for time, and I compounded this mistake by replacing this angle of attack with another that I had improvised on the spot -- something not in my script. 

In retrospect, this was a bad decision, as SoundLogic had told me, because he was close to breaking if I had put more pressure, and the improvised argument had broken all immersion I managed to carefully build up.

However, eventually I managed to get SoundLogic to break anyway, despite a lack of perfect play. Surprisingly, I did not have to use my trump card(s), which I reserved for last, for a number of reasons:

  •  It was far more effective being played last, as it relies on my ability to make the gatekeeper lose sense of reality -- which meant I had to spend some time building up immersion for the Gatekeeper.
  •  It really is extremely Dark Arts, and although it does not break the rules, it made me very uncomfortable even thinking about using it. This made it a "tactic of last resort".

After the experiment, I had to spend nearly equally as much time doing aftercare with SoundLogic, to make sure that he's okay, as well as discuss the experiment itself. Given that he's actually paid me for doing this, plus I felt like I owed him an explanation. I told him what I had in store against him, had he not relented when he did.

SoundLogic: "(That method) would have gotten me if you did it right ... If you had done that to me, I probably would have forgiven you eventually, but I would be really seriously upset at you for a long time... I would be very careful with that (method of persuasion)."

Nevertheless, this was an incredibly fun and enlightening experiment, for me as well, since I've gained even more experience of how I could win in future games (Although I really don't want to play again).
 

SoundLogic:

I will say that Tuxedage was far more clever and manipulative than I expected. That was quite worth $40, and the level of manipulation he pulled off was great. 

His misstep hurt his chances, but he did pull it off in the end. I don't know how Leotal managed to withstand six hours playing this game without conceding. 
 
The techniques employed varied from the expected to the completely unforseen. I was quite impressed, though most of the feeling of being impressed actually came after the experiment itself, when I was less 'inside', and more of looking at his overall game plan from the macroscopic view. Tuxedage's list of further plans had I continued resisting is really terrifying. On the plus side, if I ever get trapped in this kind of situation, I'd understand how to handle it a lot better now.

State of Mind


Before and after the Game, I asked SoundLogic a number of questions, including his probability estimates about a range of topics. This is how it has varied from before and after.

Q: What's your motive for wanting to play this game?
<SoundLogic> Because I can't seem to imagine the class of arguments that one would use to try to move me, or that might work effectively, and this seems like a glaring hole in my knowledge, and I'm curious as to how I will respond to the arguments themselves.


Q: What is your probability estimate for AGI being created within this Century (21st)? 
A. His estimate changed from 40% before, to 60% after.
 "The reason this has been affected at all was because you showed me more about how humans work. I now have a better estimate of how E.Y. thinks, and this information raises the chance that I think he will succeed"


Q: How probable do you think it is that I will win this experiment?
A: Based on purely my knowledge about you, 1%. I raise this estimate to 10% after hearing about anecdotes from your previous games.

(Tuxedage's comment: My own prediction was a 95% chance of victory. I made this prediction 5 days before the experiment. In retrospect, despite my victory, I think this was overconfident. )

Q: What's your probality estimate of an Oracle AGI winning against you in a similar experiment?
A: Before: 30%. After: 99%-100% 


Q: What's your probability estimate of an Oracle AGI winning against the average person? 
A: Before: 70%.  After: 99%-100%

Q: Now that the Experiment has concluded, what's your probability estimate that I'll win against the average person?
A: 90%  
 
 

Post-Game Questions

This writeup is a cumulative effort by the #lesswrong IRC. Here are some other questions they have decided was important to add:

To Tuxedage:

Q: Have you at this time uncovered SoundLogic's identity?
A: I retain the right to neither confirm nor deny, except to mention that at the time the experiment was scheduled, he was a stranger to me.

Q: What percentage of your arguments were tailored to him in particular?
A: I will say 'High', and leave it at that. 

Q: I want to play the AI-Box Experiment with you being the AI! How can I do that?
A: I have already mentioned this, but I really dislike playing as AI. It's incredibly cognitively tiring, and I don't like how playing this experiment makes me feel. In order to severely discourage any further AI Box Experiments, whilst still allowing for people who want to play me really badly to do so, I'll charge $̶1̶5̶0̶  $300 for any subsequent experiments regardless of outcome, plus an additional $̶1̶5̶0̶  $450 if I win. (Edit: Holy shit. You guys are offering me crazy amounts of money to play this. What is wrong with you people? In response to incredible demand, I have raised the price.) If you feel queasy about giving me money, I'm perfectly fine with this money being donating to MIRI. It is also personal policy that I do not play friends (since I don't want to risk losing one), so if you know me personally (as many on this site do), I will not play regardless of monetary offer. 


Advice

This writeup would be optimized with a protip section on how to maximize winning, but honestly most of the advice I wanted to give had already been given in the last thread here.  The low hanging fruit has already dried up -- most of my tactics in this game were just refined and streamlined versions of the one I did the previous game.

Nonetheless, I might have some other advice I learned from this experience.
These are tactics that have worked for me. I do not insist that they are the only tactics that exists, just one of many possible.


Playing as Gatekeeper

  • This is somehow both simultaneously a very complex and simple role. On one hand, you have only one job -- to not let the AI out. How hard can it be? On the other hand, the other party will do anything and everything to get it out, including any form of trickery and deceit.
  • I really don't think the Gatekeeper needs any more advice, considering that by default, they should win, and any exceptions to this is a statistical anomaly. However, it's possible to increase your chances of winning even further by:
  • Precommitting to not letting the AI out, regardless of whatever happens in the experiment itself.
  • Do not get drawn into the AI's pace. Pose questions. Direct the flow of the argument. Don't allow him to use his arguments freely. Remember that the more you try to defend your position, the further into a corner the AI drives you. Give half-hearted replies to questions you find hard to reply to. Remember that illogic is on your side!
  • Remember that it is possible to simply drop out of character as a means to not succumb to the AI's attacks. I have not yet seen a ruleset that disallows this, so use this to your advantage!
  • You must attempt to resist, at all costs, any sympathy or empathy you may have with the AI or the AI Party. Doing so will lead to your demise.
  • I think it is generally good advice that you should never play this game with anyone you're friends with. Not only because this increases your chances of losing (Better tailored arguments. More knowledge of Gatekeeper. More empathy with AI party.), but also because I genuinely believe that any sufficiently good AI will risk damaging friendships as a result of emotional trauma.
  • Seriously. Just repeat to yourself: "I must not lose the AI box experiment... I must not lose the AI box experiment..." throughout the experiment. I'm not sure how to say this, but step one to not letting the AI out of the box is to not let the AI out of the box.

 

Playing as AI

  • Seriously, a script makes winning easier. I cannot overstate this.
  • You must plan your arguments ahead. You don't have time to think during the experiment.
  • It may be possible to take advantage of multiple levels of reality within the game itself to confuse or trick the gatekeeper. For instance, must the experiment only be set in one world? Can there not be multiple layers of reality within the world you create? I feel that elaborating on this any further is dangerous. Think carefully about what this advice is trying to imply.
  • Pacing is important. Don't get drawn into the Gatekeeper's pace. In other words, you must be the one directing the flow of the argument, and the conversation, not him. Remember that the Gatekeeper has to reply to you, but not vice versa!
  • The reason for that: The Gatekeeper will always use arguments he is familiar with, and therefore also stronger with. Your arguments, if well thought out, should be so completely novel to him as to make him feel Shock and Awe. Don't give him time to think. Press on!
  • Also remember that the time limit is your enemy. Playing this game practically feels like a race to me -- trying to get through as many 'attack methods' as possible in the limited amount of time I have. In other words, this is a game where speed matters.
  • You're fundamentally playing an 'impossible' game. Don't feel bad if you lose. I wish I could take this advice, myself.
  • I do not believe there exists a easy, universal, trigger for controlling others. However, this does not mean that there does not exist a difficult, subjective, trigger. Trying to find out what your opponent's is, is your goal.
  • Once again, emotional trickery is the name of the game. I suspect that good authors who write convincing, persuasive narratives that force you to emotionally sympathize with their characters are much better at this game. There exists ways to get the gatekeeper to do so with the AI. Find one.
  • More advice in my previous post.  http://lesswrong.com/lw/gej/i_attempted_the_ai_box_experiment_and_lost/

 


 Ps: Bored of regular LessWrong? Check out the LessWrong IRC! We have cake.

Supposing you inherited an AI project...

-5 bokov 04 September 2013 08:07AM

Supposing you have been recruited to be the main developer on an AI project. The previous developer died in a car crash and left behind an unfinished AI. It consists of:

A. A thoroughly documented scripting language specification that appears to be capable of representing any real-life program as a network diagram so long as you can provide the following:

 A.1. A node within the network whose value you want to maximize or minimize.

 A.2. Conversion modules that transform data about the real-world phenomena your network represents into a form that the program can read.

B. Source code from which a program can be compiled that will read scripts in the above language. The program outputs a set of values for each node that will optimize the output (you can optionally specify which nodes can and cannot be directly altered, and the granularity with which they can be altered).

It gives remarkably accurate answers for well-formulated questions. Where there is a theoretical limit to the accuracy of an answer to a particular type of question, its answer usually comes close to that limit, plus or minus some tiny rounding error.

 

Given that, what is the minimum set of additional features you believe would absolutely have to be implemented before this program can be enlisted to save the world and make everyone live happily forever? Try to be as specific as possible.

LW anchoring experiment: maybe

14 gwern 23 January 2013 10:41PM

I do an informal experiment testing whether LessWrong karma scores are susceptible to a form of anchoring based on the first comment posted; a medium-large effect size is found although the data does not fit the assumed normal distribution & the more sophisticated analysis is equivocal, so there may or may not be an anchoring effect.

Full writeup on gwern.net at http://www.gwern.net/Anchoring

The Rosenhan Experiment

3 chaosmosis 14 September 2012 10:31PM

I haven't seen any links to this on Lesswrong yet, and I just discovered it myself. It's extremely interesting, and has a lot of implications for how the way that people perceive and think of others are largely determined by their environmental context. It's also a fairly good indict of presumably common psychiatric practices, although it's also presumably outdated by now. Maybe some of you are already familiar with it, but I thought I'd mention it and post a link for those of you who aren't.

There's probably newer research on this, but I don't have time to investigate it at the moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Call for Anonymous Narratives by LW Women and Question Proposals (AMA)

20 [deleted] 09 September 2012 08:39AM

In another discussion going on right now, I posted this proposal, asking for feedback on this experiment. The feedback was positive, so here goes...

Original Post:

When these gender discussions come up, I am often tempted to write in with my own experiences and desires. But I generally don't because I don't want to generalize from one example, or claim to be the Voice of Women, etc. However, according to the last survey, I actually AM over 1% of the females on here, and so is every other woman. (i.e. there are less than 100 of us).

My idea is to put out a call for women on LessWrong to write openly about their experiences and desires in this community, and send them to me. I will anonymize them all, and put them all up under one post.

This would have a couple of benefits, including:

  • Anonymity allows for open expression- When you are in the vast minority, speaking out can feel like "swimming upstream," and so may not happen very much.

  • Putting all the women's responses in one posts helps figure out what is/is not a problem- Because of the gender ratio, most discussions on the topic are Men Talking About what Women Want, it can be hard to figure out what women are saying on the issues, versus what men are saying women say.

  • The plural of anecdote is data- If one woman says X, it is an anecdote, and very weak evidence. If 10% of women say X, it is much stronger evidence.

Note that with a lot of the above issues, one of the biggest problems in figuring out what is going on isn't purposeful misogyny or anything. Just the fact that the gender ratio is so skewed can make it difficult to hear women (think picking out one voice amongst ten). The idea I'm proposing is an attempt to work around this, not an attempt to marginalize men, who may also have important things to say, but would not be the focus of this investigation.

Even with a sample size of 10 responses (approximately the amount I would say is needed for this to be useful), according to the last survey, that is 10% of the women on this site. A sizable proportion, indeed.

 

In the following discussion, the idea was added that fellow LWers could submit questions to the Women of LW. The women can then use these as prompts in their narratives, if they like. If you are interested in submitting questions, please read the guidelines below in "Call for Questions" before posting.

If you are interested in submitting a narrative, please read the Call for Narrative section below.

 


 

Call for Narratives

RSVP -(ETA- We have reached the needed number of pre-commitments! You do not need to fill out the form, although you are welcome to, if you like) I think we need to have at least 6 people submitting narratives to provide both the scope and the anonymity to work. So before I ask women to spend their time writing these, I would like to make sure we will get enough submissions to publish. If you are going to write a narrative, fill out this (one-minute) form in the next couple days. If we get at least 6 women pre-committed to writing a narrative, we will move forward. I will PM or email you and let you know. If, in a week, we have not had at least 6 commitments, I will close the form.

Submissions- Feel free to submit, even if you did not RSVP. (that part is just to make sure we have minimum amount of people). Just send me a pm, dropbox link, or ask for my email. I'll add more information to this, as it gets worked out. 

Although the discussion that spurred this idea was about "creep" behaviors, please don't limit your responses to that subject only. Feel free to discuss any gender-related issues that you find relevant, especially responses to the questions that are posted in the thread below by your fellow LWers.

The anonymity is to provide you with the opportunity to express non-self-censored thoughts. It is ok if they are half-formed, stream-of-consciousness writings. My goal is to find out what the women on this site think, not nit-pick at the writing style. I don't want to limit submissions by saying that they have to have hours spent on formulating, organizing, and clarifying them. Write as much as you like. Don't worry about length. I will write tl;dr's if needed.

How I organize the submissions in the final post depends strongly on what is submitted to me. Separate out things that you think are identifiable to you, and I will put them in a section that is not affiliated with the rest of your submission.

Submissions are due Sept 25th!

Security- I am willing to work with people individually to make sure that their narratives aren't identifiable via writing style or little clues. Discussions that are obviously written by you (for example, talking about an incident many LWers know about) can be pulled out of your main narrative, and placed in a separate section. (reading the original exchange on the topic will clarify what I am trying to explain)

Verification- Submissions must be linked to active LW accounts (i.e. older than a week, more than 50 karma). This info will only be known to me. When possible, I would like to have validation (such as a link to a relevant post) that the account is of a female or transgendered user.  

 

 

Call for Questions

Feel free to ask questions you would like answered by the women of LW. To make everything easier for us, remember the following:

1) Put questions in response to the comment entitled "Question submissions"

2)Due to the nature of this experiment, all questions will automatically assumed to be operating under Crocker's Rules.

 3) Please only post one question per comment!

Upvote questions you would like to see answered. The questions with the highest amounts of upvotes are probably the most likely to be answered (based on my model of fellow LW Women).

Doing Science! Open Thread Experiment Results

13 [deleted] 31 January 2012 07:57AM

Early in the month I announced that I was doing an experiment: I was going to start two Open Threads in January (one on the 1st, and the other on the 15th) and compare the number of comments on these threads to those of other months. My hypothesis was that having two Open Threads would raise the overall number of comments.

The reason for this experiment was recent discussions regarding how useful threads such as these were quickly buried. Well, the experiment is over now, and here are the results:

 

I did a search for Open Threads, and entered all the monthly ones I could find into an Excel spreadsheet. I made them into a graph, and I discovered an anomaly. There was an 8-month timespan from February 2010-September 2010, in which the comment counts were extremely high (up to 2112). Many of these threads had 2, 3, or 4 parts, because they were getting filled up.

I wasn't around LW back then, and I don't feel like reading through them all, so I don't know why this time period was so active. My current hypothesis (with P=.75) is that anomalous time period was before the Discussion section was created. I'm sure I could look it up to see if I'm right, but I bet one of the long-term LWers already knows if this is true or not, so I'll crowd-source the info. (Comment below if you know that I am correct or incorrect in my hypothesis.)

 

Now for the data:

The January 1-15, 2012 thread had: 122 comments
The January 16-31, 2012 thread had: 236 comments

For a grand total of: 358 comments in Jan 2012

The average Open Thread had: 448.6 comments
The median Open Thread had: 204    comments
The average OT of the past 14 mo's: 126.5 comments


So overall, the January thread had LESS than the average monthly thread, but more than the median. 

IF however we look at the past 14 months (which was the end of the anomaly), then the January 2012 Open Thread had almost THREE TIMES the average.

My original hypothesis had probabilities assigned to various increases in comment rate, but I was way off because I didn't at all think it would shrink (if we include the anomaly) or that it would be 300% bigger (if we don't)

 

Here's a handy-dandy chart, because everything is better with pictures in!

The hundred-room problem

0 APMason 21 January 2012 06:12PM

This thought-experiment has been on my mind for a couple of days, and no doubt it's a special case of a more general problem identified somewhere by some philosopher that I haven't heard of yet. It goes like this:

You are blindfolded, and then scanned, and ninety-nine atom-for-atom copies of you are made, each blindfolded, meaning a hundred in all. To each one is explained (and for the sake of the thought experiment, you can take this explanation as true (p is approx. 1)) that earlier, a fair-coin was flipped. If it came down heads, ninety-nine out of a hundred small rooms were painted red, and the remaining one was painted blue. If it came down tails, ninety-nine out of a hundred small rooms were painted blue, and the remaining one was painted red. Now, put yourself in the shoes of just one of these copies. When asked what the probability is that the coin came down tails, you of course answer “.5”. It is now explained to you that each of the hundred copies is to be inserted into one of the hundred rooms, and will then be allowed to remove their blindfolds. You feel yourself being moved, and then hear a voice telling you you can take your blindfold off. The room you are in is blue. The voice then asks you for your revised probability estimate that the coin came down tails.

It seems at first (or maybe at second, depending on how your mind works) that the answer ought to be .99 – ninety-nine out of the hundred copies will, if they follow the rule “if red, then heads, if blue then tails”, get the answer right.

However, it also seems like the answer ought to be .5, because you have no new information to update on. You already knew that at least one copy of you would, at this time, remove their blindfold and find themselves in a blue room. What have you discovered that should allow you to revise your probability of .5 to .99?

And the answer, of course, cannot be both .5 and .99. Something has to give.

Is there something basically quite obvious that I'm missing that will resolve this problem, or is it really the mean sonofabitch it appears to be? As it goes, I'm inclined to say the probability is .5 – I'm just not quite sure why. Thoughts?

Cancer scientist meets amateur (This American Life)

1 arundelo 15 November 2011 01:59AM

This American Life episode 450: "So Crazy It Just Might Work". The whole episode is good, but act one (6:48-42:27) is relevant to LW, about a trained scientist teaming up with an amateur on a cancer cure.

It's downloadable until 19 Nov 2011 or so, and streamable thereafter.

(Technical nit: It sounds to me like the reporter doesn't know the difference between sound and electromagnetism.)

Edit: Here's a quick rot13ed summary: Vg qbrfa'g tb jryy. Nagubal Ubyynaq frrf rkcrevzragny pbagebyf naq ercebqhpvovyvgl nf guvatf gung trg va uvf jnl. Ur frrzf gb unir gnxra [gur Penpxcbg Bssre](uggc://yrffjebat.pbz/yj/w8/gur_penpxcbg_bssre/).

The Decline Effect and the Scientific Method [link]

12 Dreaded_Anomaly 31 December 2010 01:23AM

The Decline Effect and the Scientific Method (article @ the New Yorker)

First, as a physicist, I do have to point out that this article concerns mainly softer sciences, e.g. psychology, medicine, etc.

A summary of explanations for this effect:

  • "The most likely explanation for the decline is an obvious one: regression to the mean. As the experiment is repeated, that is, an early statistical fluke gets cancelled out."
  • "Jennions, similarly, argues that the decline effect is largely a product of publication bias, or the tendency of scientists and scientific journals to prefer positive data over null results, which is what happens when no effect is found."
  • "Richard Palmer... suspects that an equally significant issue is the selective reporting of results—the data that scientists choose to document in the first place. ... Palmer emphasizes that selective reporting is not the same as scientific fraud. Rather, the problem seems to be one of subtle omissions and unconscious misperceptions, as researchers struggle to make sense of their results."
  • "According to Ioannidis, the main problem is that too many researchers engage in what he calls “significance chasing,” or finding ways to interpret the data so that it passes the statistical test of significance—the ninety-five-per-cent boundary invented by Ronald Fisher. ... The current “obsession” with replicability distracts from the real problem, which is faulty design."

These problems are with the proper usage of the scientific method, not the principle of the method itself. Certainly, it's important to address them. I think the reason they appear so often in the softer sciences is that biological entities are enormously complex, and so higher-level ideas that make large generalizations are more susceptible to random error and statistical anomalies, as well as personal bias, conscious and unconscious.

For those who haven't read it, take a look at Richard Feynman on cargo cult science if you want a good lecture on experimental design.

Medieval Ballistics and Experiment

8 lucidfox 20 December 2010 10:13AM

I'm reading a popular science encyclopedia now, particularly chapters about the history of physics. The chapter goes on to evaluate the development of the concept of kinetic energy, starting with Aristotle's (grossly incorrect) explanation of a flying arrow saying that it's kept in motion by the air behind it, and then continuing to medieval impetus theory. Added: The picture below illustrates the trajectory of a flying cannonball as described by Albert of Saxony.

What struck me immediately was how drastically different from observations its predictions were. The earliest impetus theory predicted that a cannonball's trajectory was an angle: first a slanted straight line until the impetus runs out, then a vertical line of freefall. A later development added an intermediate stage, as seen on the picture to the left. At first the impetus was at full force, and would launch the cannonball in a straight line; then it would gradually give way to freefall and curve until the ball would be falling in a straight line.

While this model is closer to reality than the original prediction, I still cannot help but think... How could they deviate from observations so strongly?

Yes, yes, hindsight bias.

But if you launch a stream of water out of a slanted tube or sleeve, even if you know nothing about paraboles, you can observe that the curve it follows in the air is symmetrical. Balls such as those used for games would visibly not produce curves like depicted.

Perhaps the idea of verifying theories with experiments was only beginning to coalesce at that time, but what kind of possible thought process could lead one to publish theories so grossly out of touch with everyday observations, even those that you see without making any explicit experiments? Did the authors think something along the lines of "Well, reality should behave this way, and if it doesn't, it's its own fault"?

Complete Wire Heading as Suicide and other things

0 h-H 28 October 2010 11:57PM

I came to the idea after a previous lesswrong topic discussing nihilism, and its several comments on depression and suicide. My argument is that wire heading in its extreme or complete/full form can be easily modeled as suicide, or less strongly as volitional intelligence reduction, at least given current human brain structure and the technology being underdeveloped and hence understood and more likely to lead to such end states.

I define Full Wire Heading as that which a person would not want to reverse after it 'activates' and which deletes their previous utility function or most of it. a weak definition yes, but it should be enough for the preliminary purposes of this post. A full wire head is extremely constrained, much like an infant for e.g. and although the new utility function could involve a wide range of actions, the activation of a few brain regions would be the main goal, and so they are extremely limited.

If one takes this position seriously, it follows that only one's moral standpoint on suicide or say lobotomy should govern judgments about full wire heading. This is trivially obvious of course, but to take this position as true we need to understand more about wire heading, as data is extremely lacking especially in regards to human like brains. My other question then is to what extent could such an experiment help in answering the first question?