dlthomas comments on The curse of identity - LessWrong

121 Post author: Kaj_Sotala 17 November 2011 07:28PM

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Tags: signaling modularity akrasia hypocrisy

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Comment author: MileyCyrus 18 November 2011 08:56:01AM 4 points [-]

Truckers. Military contractors. Strippers.

Comment author: dlthomas 18 November 2011 02:37:46PM 2 points [-]

All three of these are low status in many audiencies/societies. I think that for each, however, there exists an audience that accords them high status.

Comment author: Aleksei_Riikonen 18 November 2011 10:36:39PM 3 points [-]

Who considers strippers to be high status?

(Certainly not the actual audience. They just see meat to eat with their eyes, not a person. Even prostitutes are probably respected a lot more on average than strippers, since it's more common that people at least talk to prostitutes, and become more aware that there's a person there.)

Comment author: pjeby 18 November 2011 11:01:26PM 11 points [-]

They just see meat to eat with their eyes, not a person.

Typical mind fallacy, perhaps?

I don't know about you, but if I happen to be watching someone stripping it's much more about the meeting of the eyes than the eyeing of the meat.

Even prostitutes are probably respected a lot more on average than strippers, since it's more common that people at least talk to prostitutes

Well, if you go by the HBO specials they did about both groups, it's actually the other way around. Though really, people formed long-term relationships with their service providers in both groups.

Comment author: Aleksei_Riikonen 18 November 2011 11:18:27PM 4 points [-]

Typical mind fallacy, perhaps?

Generalizing from one example, rather. Mostly I was going by what I've heard from an acquaintance that worked as a stripper.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 01 December 2011 04:01:51AM 4 points [-]

I don't know about you, but if I happen to be watching someone stripping it's much more about the meeting of the eyes than the eyeing of the meat.

It's not necessarily about the eyes for me, but If the stripper is any good, it's more about emotional expression than flapping their meat around. Sadly, many strippers dance like meat sacks. What worries me is that they may just know their market better than I do.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 November 2011 11:37:29PM *  2 points [-]

I don't know about "high status", but Roissy discusses here whether it is better to insinuate, for the purposes of attracting another woman, that you've dated strippers or lawyers in the past (his conclusion: it depends), and he recounts a failed attempt to pick up an attractive stripper here.

Quotes:

The reason stripper DHVs work on nearly all women to a greater or lesser degree is because, contrary to the erroneous belief that women wouldn’t be impressed by what men are impressed by, a stripper is REAL WORLD evidence that the man who dated her has preselection value, i.e. reproductive fitness. Strippers are perceived, (whether the perception is valid is irrelevant), as hot girls who are out of reach of the average man. A man who has [fornicated with] a stripper must therefore bring something very special to the table; namely, his irresistibility.

I would eat my own eyes if I ever see Roissy or anyone else say the same about prostitutes (dating them when they aren't on the job).

Naturally I would not be going over to the stage like every other hard up loser. Although the girls are the ones naked before the men, they have all the power [...] Walking over to the stage to watch her dance and give her dollars would have been the equivalent of neutering myself [...] I stayed put at the bar and turned my back on [the girl], only looking over for a second to smile at her.

So although strippers are low class in general, the men who watch them put them in a high status position relative to themselves. The same cannot be said of prostitutes, who are lower status than just about anyone in society including the men who use them. Prostitution is by far the most degrading occupation for a woman.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 19 November 2011 09:49:57AM 11 points [-]

The same cannot be said of prostitutes, who are lower status than just about anyone in society including the men who use them.

Some prostitutes have high status with their audience. Quickly translated from Punainen eksodus, a PhD sociology thesis on Finnish prostitution:

Sex workers find that their position favors them: of 25 interviewed workers, 13 felt they were in a dominant position as compared to the customer. 11 felt that the power was evenly distributed so that the sex worker sets the limits inside which the customer makes his choices. The estimate may be related to the relatively good position of Finnish sex workers, but the feeling of power has also been documented in the international literature:

"It [sex work] really challenged the traditional idea of an orgasm as something that the man "gives" me. According to the traditional view, the woman isn't supposed to control the sex act, but to be the passive recipient of whatever happens. But as the prostitute you're the one who sets the pace, you're the one who controls the whole situation." (Maryann from Santa Cruz, interviewed by Chapkins 1997, 85.)

At the time when my material was collected, Finnish sex markets were characterized by demand far outstripping the supply, a "seller's market", forcing the customers to compete with each other for meeting times. A reasonable employment situation and social security combined to reinforce the sex worker's negotiation position, for she could select her customers and could often also decide to stop doing sex work.

According to the sex workers, they are also empowered by the internal logic of the relationship. The buyer needs to pay for the meeting and wants it. For many men, a successful act requires the sex worker to be aroused (or to at least feign arousal). On the other hand, the seller can be happy when she gets her money, and an advance payment is not tied to the customer's satisfaction. Even if the seller is doing the job for financial reasons and is therefore reliant on the income, her earnings are not tied to any particular customer.

"And if I don't have fun with the customer, I can tell after two times, then I'll tell the customer straight that this isn't working. I'll tell him directly that 'you should start getting this service from somewhere else, I'm not going to offer it anymore'. I've needed to say that some tens of times, but it's true. Just like my customers have the right to choose me, I have the right to choose my customers." (Interview, Tiina.)

"I've grabbed some guys by the neck and thrown them out after they've acted inappropriately. At the start of each meeting I'll explain my rules and if someone breaks them, I warn them on the first time and throw them out on the second." (Interview, Maija.)

[...]

"Somehow earlier I was a little afraid, in a way I was afraid of and kept kind of a respectful distance to men. Now it's the other way around. Men are the ones in need, and I can treat them kinda the way it happens to suit me. If someone isn't suitable for me, then they aren't and they better accept that. They're in a dominated position to me. I'm the one who decides and does." (Interview, Kaarina.)

Based on these experiences, it does not seem like people would get into sex work in order to relive earlier traumas. In my material, a history of bad experiences with sex comes up specifically as an opposite to one's own role as a seller of sex. After the experience of feeling dominated, it may be liberating to realize that there's nothing wrong in demanding personal satisfaction, and that many men are even willing to pay extra for it.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 November 2011 11:37:42AM 7 points [-]

Interesting. I suppose I had in mind the kind of prostitute who has no choice of customers. On the other hand a prostitute (or "escort") who turns undesirable men down is not too far away from being a run-of-the-mill promiscuous woman who extracts material benefits from her suitors. The prostitute in this case has merely formalised her revenue stream.

In my defense, I was responding to this claim: "Even prostitutes are probably respected a lot more on average than strippers", and I don't believe that the average prostitute is in such a comfortable position. I also think that the feeling of power or control over the situation is not really the same thing as status. If you asked the Finnish prostitutes' customers whether given the choice they would prefer their own daughters to be prostitutes, or strippers (whom the men are not allowed to touch) then you might get a different perspective.

Comment author: wedrifid 19 November 2011 03:28:39AM 4 points [-]

I would eat my own eyes if I ever see Roissy or anyone else say the same about prostitutes (dating them when they aren't on the job).

I advise you to be careful to avoid reading anything further related to this subject. Because I have seen just that!

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