JoshuaZ comments on Conspiracy Theories as Agency Fictions - LessWrong

30 [deleted] 09 June 2012 03:15PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 10 June 2012 08:30:39AM *  11 points [-]

The Heterosexual White Males example rubs me the wrong way.

The article deals tightly scapegoating and seeing malignant agency where there is none.

Our Dunbarian minds probably just plain can't get how a society can be that complex and unpredictable without it being "planned" by a cabal of Satan or Heterosexual White Males or the Illuminati (but I repeat myself twice) scheming to make weird things happen in our oblivious small stone age tribe.

The line was a joke alluding to acceptable targets. However since you responded seriously and with concern I think I should reply in kind.

I haven't heard of what I'd call conspiracy theories about that, and it doesn't match the ridiculousness of Satan or the Illuminati.

I find this hard to believe. They aren't really used in such theories exactly the way a devil would be (oh wait), but I dare say they are invoked in the same way Jews sometimes are. And surely a list of Satan, the Iluminati and the Jews makes intuitive sense? ;) Even the most ardent anti-semite in conversation assures you that while most Jews are annoying they probably aren't all involved in plots to enslave mankind. The MacDonald inspired anti-semite will further argue that because of their culture they can't help but subconsciously sabotage wider society for the benefit of their ethnic group. He will also even point out one or two good Jews, usually the kind that exposes the fiendish plots of other Jews.

Are anti-semites conspiracy theorists? Not all of them. One can have hatred or dislike for the Jewish or any other people and avoid spinning any such tales at all. But often conspiracy theories used to support such positions are quite common among them. A different example of this would be the conspiracy theories regarding Armenians. The pattern even holds for Anti-American sentiments.

Keeping this in mind I ask you to search for some conspiracy theories about the origins of AIDS. Mind you these are quite popular in some circles. Are you really claiming you never head of such tales? Don't White Heterosexual males play the role of Satan or the Jews in them? It seems strange to deny that they indeed to. It also seems hard to dispute that the image evoked by The Man is such a male.

Even if you discount all these example, what about the theories such as that of Babylonian oppression?

Some Rastafarians maintain that a white racist patriarchy ("Babylon") controls the world in order to oppress the African race.[32] They believe that Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia did not die when it was reported in 1975, and that the racist, white media ("Babylon") propagated that rumour in order to squash the Rastafari Movement and its message of overthrowing Babylon.[33]

These indeed this one exactly fit the bill of my joke and is far from the only one of its kind.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 June 2012 04:29:49PM -2 points [-]

That's a conspiracy theory about whites, not "white heterosexual males". Most focus on "white heterosexual males" if anything is an anti-conspiracy theory, since what is posited is not coordination but rather more oblivious people who just don't realize that not everyone is in their position or has their viewpoints. For example, when people speak of "white male privilege" they don't mean there's a conspiracy theory to help white males, but rather that white males do have advantages in much of society and we often don't realize it. Similarly, when people talk about heteronormativity, they are generally talking about people taking for granted certain types of sex and gender roles as universal.

The appropriate analogy might be that there are people who think the Illuminati created the banking crisis. That's distinct from thinking that specific systemic problems and competence issues created the problem.

Comment author: [deleted] 10 June 2012 04:33:21PM *  4 points [-]

The white racist patriarchy is not male at least? I'm sure it will be very disappointed to hear that.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 June 2012 04:45:39PM 0 points [-]

Again, in most forms it isn't a conspiracy theory- the people advocating it don't generally argue that there's an overarching conspiracy as much. Some of them do move to the conspiratorial end, but even then they don't approach full blown conspiracy in the sense of deliberate hidden coordination.

Comment author: [deleted] 10 June 2012 04:46:37PM 2 points [-]

I was specifically referencing the Rastafarian conspiracy theory I quoted previously.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 June 2012 04:48:53PM 1 point [-]

Ah, yes that would fall into the conspiracy theory outright. There's no question that there are quite a few conspiracies about "whites" as the explicit conspiracy group. I think my confusion in this context stemmed from your use of patriarchy- as far as I'm aware the Rastafarian conspiracy doesn't make any point about patriarchy or heterosexuality, which are relevant in the original context.

Comment author: [deleted] 10 June 2012 04:51:20PM *  2 points [-]

Some Rastafarians maintain that a white racist patriarchy ("Babylon") controls the world in order to oppress the African race.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 June 2012 06:36:23PM 0 points [-]

Huh. That's interesting. I've never seen an emphasis on patriarchy in the Rastafarian material I've seen. I'll have to look into that in more detail. The sources that Wikipedia entry give are a dead link and this which doesn't seem to mention a patriarchal aspect as far as I can tell.