Why Eat Less Meat?
Previously, I wrote on LessWrong about the preliminary evidence in favor of using leaflets to promote veganism as a way of cost-effectively reducing suffering. In response, there was a large discussion with 530+ comments. In this discussion, I found that a lot of people wanted me to write about why I think nonhuman animals deserve our concern anyway.
Therefore, I wrote this essay with an attempt to defend the view that if one cares about suffering, one should also care about nonhuman animals, since (1) they are capable of suffering, (2) they do suffer quite a lot, and (3) we can prevent their suffering. I hope that we can have a sober, non mind-killing discussion about this topic, since it’s possibly quite important.
Introduction
For the past two years, the only place I ate meat was at home with my family. As of October 2012, I've finally stopped eating meat altogether and can't see a reason why I would want to go back to eating meat. This kind of attitude toward eating is commonly classified as "vegetarianism" where one refrains from eating the flesh of all animals, including fish, but still will consume animal products like eggs and milk (though I try to avoid egg as best I can).
Why might I want to do this? And why might I see it as a serious issue? It's because I'm very concerned about the reality of suffering done to our "food animals" in the process of making them into meat, because I see vegetarianism as a way to reduce this suffering by stopping the harmful process, and because vegetarianism has not been hard at all for me to accomplish.
Animals Can Suffer
Back in the 1600s, Réné Descartes thought nonhuman animals were soulless automatons that could respond to their environment and react to stimuli, but could not feel anything — humans were the only species that were truly conscious. Descartes hit on an important point — since feelings are completely internal to the animal doing the feeling, it is impossible to demonstrate that anyone is truly conscious.
However, when it comes to humans, we don’t let that stop us from assuming other people feel pain. When we jab a person with a needle, no matter who they are, where they come from, or what they look like, they share a rather universal reaction of what we consider to be evidence of pain. We also extend this to our pets — we make great strides to avoid harming kittens, puppies, or other companion animals, and no one would want to kick a puppy or light a kitten on fire just because their consciousness cannot be directly observed. That’s why we even go as far as having laws against animal cruelty.
The animals we eat are no different. Pigs, chickens, cows, and fish all have incredibly analogous responses to stimuli that we would normally agree cause pain to humans and pets. Jab a pig with a needle, kick a chicken, or light a cow on fire, and they will react aversively like any cat, dog, horse, or human.
The Science
But we don't need to rely on just our intuition -- instead, we can look at the science. Animal scientists Temple Grandin and Mark Deesing conclude that "[o]ur review of the literature on frontal cortex development enables us to conclude that all mammals, including rats, have a sufficiently developed prefrontal cortex to suffer from pain". An interview of seven different scientists concludes that animals can suffer.
Dr. Jane Goodall, famous for having studied animals, writes in her introduction to The Inner World of Farm Animals that "farm animals feel pleasure and sadness, excitement and resentment, depression, fear, and pain. They are far more aware and intelligent than we ever imagined…they are individuals in their own right." Farm Sanctuary, an animal welfare organization, has a good overview documenting this research on animal emotion.
Lastly, among much other evidence, in the "Cambridge Declaration On Consciousness", prominent international group of cognitive neuroscientists, neuropharmacologists, neurophysiologists, neuroanatomists and computational neuroscientists states:
Convergent evidence indicates that non-human animals have the neuroanatomical, neurochemical, and neurophysiological substrates of conscious states along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors. Consequently, the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Nonhuman animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.
Factory Farming Causes Considerable Suffering
However, the fact that animals can suffer is just one piece of the picture; we next have to establish that animals do suffer as a result of people eating meat. Honestly, this is easier shown than told -- there's an extremely harrowing and shocking 11-minute video about the cruelty available. Watching that video is perhaps the easiest way to see the suffering of nonhuman animals first hand in these "factory farms".
In making the case clear, Vegan Outreach writes "Many people believe that animals raised for food must be treated well because sick or dead animals would be of no use to agribusiness. This is not true."
They then go on to document, with sources, how virtually all birds raised for food are from factory farms where "resulting ammonia levels [from densely populated sheds and accumulated waste] commonly cause painful burns to the birds' skin, eyes, and respiratory tracts" and how hens "become immobilized and die of asphyxiation or dehydration", having been "[p]acked in cages (usually less than half a square foot of floor space per bird)". In fact, 137 million chickens suffer to death each year before they can even make it to slaughter -- more than the number of animals killed for fur, in shelters and in laboratories combined!
Farm Sanctuary also provides an excellent overview of the cruelty of factory farming, writing "Animals on factory farms are regarded as commodities to be exploited for profit. They undergo painful mutilations and are bred to grow unnaturally fast and large for the purpose of maximizing meat, egg, and milk production for the food industry."
It seems clear that factory farming practices are truly deplorable, and certainly are not worth the benefit of eating a slightly tastier meal. In "An Animal's Place", Michael Pollan writes:
To visit a modern CAFO (Confined Animal Feeding Operation) is to enter a world that, for all its technological sophistication, is still designed according to Cartesian principles: animals are machines incapable of feeling pain. Since no thinking person can possibly believe this any more, industrial animal agriculture depends on a suspension of disbelief on the part of the people who operate it and a willingness to avert your eyes on the part of everyone else.
Vegetarianism Can Make a Difference
Many people see the staggering amount of suffering in factory farms, and if they don't aim to dismiss it outright will say that there's no way they can make a difference by changing their eating habits. However, this is certainly not the case!
How Many Would Be Saved?
Drawing from the 2010 Livestock Slaughter Animal Summary and the Poultry Slaughter Animal Summary, 9.1 billion land animals are either grown in the US or imported (94% of which are chickens!), 1.6 billion are exported, and 631 million die before anyone can eat them, leaving 8.1 billion land animals for US consumption each year.
A naïve average would divide this total among the population of the US, which is 311 million, assigning 26 land animals for each person's annual consumption. Thus, by being vegetarian, you are saving 26 land animals a year you would have otherwise eaten. And this doesn't even count fish, which could be quite high given how many fish need to be grown just to be fed to bigger fish!
Yet, this is not quite true. It's important to note that supply and demand aren't perfectly linear. If you reduce your demand for meat, the suppliers will react by lowering the price of meat a little bit, making it so more people can buy it. Since chickens dominate the meat market, we'll adjust by the supply elasticity of chickens, which is 0.22 and the demand elasticity of chickens, which is -0.52, and calculate the change in supply, which is 0.3. Taking this multiplier, it's more accurate to say you're saving 7.8 land animals a year or more. Though, there are a lot of complex considerations in calculating elasticity, so we should take this figure to have some uncertainty.
Collective Action
One might critique this response by responding that since meat is often bought in bulk, reducing meat consumption won't affect the amount of meat bought, and thus the suffering will still be the same, except with meat gone to waste. However, this ignores the effect of many different vegetarians acting together.
Imagine that you're supermarket buys cases of 200 chicken wings. It would thus take 200 people together to agree to buy 1 less wing in order for the supermarket to buy less wings. However, you have no idea if you're vegetarian #1 or vegetarian #56 or vegetarian #200, making the tipping point for 200 less wings to be bought. You thus can estimate that by buying one less wing you have a 1 in 200 chance of reducing 200 wings, which is equivalent to reducing the supply by one wing. So the effect basically cancels out. See here or here for more.
Every time you buy factory farmed meat, you are creating demand for that product, essentially saying "Thank you, I liked what you are doing and want to encourage you to do it more". By eating less meat, we can stop our support of this industry.
Vegetarianism Is Easier Than You Think
So nonhuman animals can suffer and do suffer in factory farms, and we can help stop this suffering by eating less meat. I know people who get this far, but then stop and say that, as much as they would like to, there's no way they could be a vegetarian because they like meat too much! However, such a joy for meat shouldn't count much compared to the massive suffering each animal undergoes just to be farmed -- imagine if someone wouldn't stop eating your pet just because they like eating your pet so much!
This is less than a problem than you might think, because being a vegetarian is really easy. Most people only think about what they would have to give up and how good it tastes, and don't think about what tasty things they could eat instead that have no meat in them. When I first decided to be a vegetarian, I simply switched from tasty hamburgers to tasty veggieburgers and there was no problem at all.
A Challenge
To those who say that vegetarianism is too hard, I’d like to simply challenge you to just try it for a few days. Feel free to give up afterward if you find it too hard. But I imagine that you should do just fine, find great replacements, and be able to save animals from suffering in the process.
If reducing suffering is one of your goals, there’s no reason why you must either be a die-hard meat eater or a die-hard vegetarian. Instead, feel free to explore some middle ground. You could be a vegetarian on weekdays but eat meat on weekends, or just try Meatless Mondays, or simply try to eat less meat. You could try to eat bigger animals like cows instead of fish or chicken, thus getting the same amount of meat with significantly less suffering.
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(This was also cross-posted on my blog.)
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Comments (513)
A question I have is how to evaluate the morality of the two options:
If everyone went vegetarian, the animal population would likely be greatly diminished and it isn't obvious to me that I'd choose option B over option A if I were on the menu. Are there some standard objections to the idea that option A is better than option B?
One quick objection might be that it proves too much. If John Beatmykids told me he wouldn't have kids unless he was permitted to beat them, I wouldn't give him a pass to beat any future children. Another objection might be that there's always a choice C, but here I don't see another option as realistic.
The reason to prefer option B over option A is the standard considerations of "suffering is bad". On most consequentialist considerations, a life of entirely suffering is not worth living. Would you want to exist if the only thing that would happen to you is torture and then death?
Your example with John Beatmykids is a good one.
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Choice C might be to raise animals that are engineered to not feel pain.
Have you read much about the lives of farm animals? In general once people do I think they agree that these are lives that are not worth living. There's plenty of footage on the web too.
Indeed so. Factory-farmed nonhuman animals are debeaked, tail-docked, castrated (etc) to prevent them from mutilating themselves and each other. Self-mutilitary behaviour in particular suggests an extraordinarily severe level of chronic distress. Compare how desperate human beings must be before we self-mutilate. A meat-eater can (correctly) respond that the behavioural and neuroscientific evidence that factory-farmed animals suffer a lot is merely suggestive, not conclusive. But we're not trying to defeat philosophical scepticism, just act on the best available evidence. Humans who persuade ourselves that factory-farmed animals are happy are simply kidding ourselves - we're trying to rationalise the ethically indefensible.
This seems to address one of my points raised here.
Self-mutilation is certainly a proxy for very low or negative quality of life, even if directly suicidal behaviour is not available (because the animal can't form a concept of suicide as a way out). If the docking, castrating etc. is to prevent mutilation of other nearby animals, that's a bit different of course.
I'm very wary of deeming any life to be of negative quality unless there is very compelling evidence that the life-form itself feels the same way.
Also, see my other comment: what happens if a few changes to farming practice can make the quality of life positive, even if just barely so? Does the objection to meat really go away?
drnickbone, the argument that meat-eating can be ethically justified if conditions of factory-farmed animals are improved so their lives are "barely" worth living is problematic. As it stands, the argument justifies human cannibalism. Breeding human babies for the pot is potentially ethically justified because the infants in question wouldn't otherwise exist - although they are factory- farmed, runs this thought-experiment, their lives are at least "barely" worth living because they don't self-mutilate or show the grosser signs of psychological trauma. No, I'm sure you don't buy this argument - but then we shouldn't buy it for nonhuman animals either.
Hmm, I can't see any obvious utilitarian approach under which a cannibal society would be justified.
First, it would have to be a non-human society, or a society where humans had been substantially modified to remove their revulsion at eating other humans.
Second, under total utilitarian logic, it looks like there could be more people sustained on a bare subsistence diet (all of them with lives barely worth living) than could be sustained by breeding one bunch of humans to be consumed by other humans. So total utilitarians should reject the cannibal society: ironically, it may not be repugnant enough for the Repugnant Conclusion to hold! Under the same "repugnant" logic, total utilitarians would abolish meat eating and eradicate wild animals, whenever that led to an increase in the human population.
Average utilitarians would also reject the cannibal society, since they could improve the welfare of an average human by just not breeding the cannibal victims. It's less clear to me what average utilitarians should do about farm animals and wildlife. This depends on whether these animals are included in the average at equal weight with humans, or whether there are different weighting factors. If equal weighting, then eradicating all non-human animal life would increase the average welfare of what's left. This is another sort of repugnant conclusion of course.
However, none of these is the strongest reason for rejecting a cannibal scenario. The strongest reason appears to be the Kantian one: it's wrong to treat human beings as means to an end. Whereas there seems to be no similar Kantian injunction against treating animals as means to an end.
It's interesting that there is this asymmetry, which does initially look like outright speciesism. However, the crucial asymmetry is probably between agents who can be expected to be bound by a shared set of moral rules (including the rule of not using each other) and other beings who are not and cannot be bound by the same rules. If there were non-human animals, with whom we could agree to share a moral code, then the code could say it is wrong to use them as means to an end as well.
For evolutionary reasons, humans have instinctive reactions to both human infants and cannibalism that are unrelated to whether a course of action is really ethical, so claiming that something is bad because it justifies eating infants is often a cheat.
And if we actually started eating infants, the existence of those instincts would mean that it would be done mostly by people who lack those instincts because of brain malfunction. This would in practice lead to people with brain malfunctions controlling the project, which would quickly extend it to unethical areas regardless of whether the original version is ethical.
So you're saying that farming human infants can be ethically justified in contrived circumstances? I agree. But most people wouldn't, which suggests that this might not be their true rejection. A continued practice of farming animals would send the wrong message to people who aren't consequentialists, it would send the message that treating beings differently simply because of their species-membership is normal/okay, which could have very bad consequences for nonhumans in the long run.
If most people don't agree with farming human infants, but they do agree with other things for which similar arguments can be made, that does not imply that their reasons for accepting the other things aren't genuine. It may instead imply that their reasons for rejecting the farming of human infants aren't genuine. Given the existence of powerful human instincts related to both infants and cannibalism, I find the latter explanation to be more likely than the former.
The question is not whether they themselves would farm the infants, but whether they see an ethical objection to doing it in hypothetical circumstances where those indirect reasons you mention are removed. Imagine we'd ask people the following question:
Suppose we discover an isolated island where the islanders farm infants and where the whole society is completely fine it. You have a magic button that could remodel the society in a way stopping that practice. All else would remain equal, i.e. no one on that island would become better or worse off because of the button. Would you push it or are you indifferent? And if you would push it, how much money would you be willing to pay for pushing it? Furthermore, we specify that after pushing or not pushing the button, you will forget about the island.
My guess is that people would pay money for this, which suggests that it's not just their emotional dispositions that are responsible for their judgment but rather the underlying moral principles they are following.
Given the strong instinctual aversion to doing such things, anyone who is willing to do them probably has a brain malfunction. (Note that "believing they are ethical" is not the same as "willing to do them".) Most people would consider an island whose inhabitants have brain malfunctions to be something to be stopped. And you can't postulate a society of people who don't have brain malfunctions and yet like to do such things unless they are not human.
Furthermore, most people asked such a thing will be unable to separate their instinctual reactions from ethical judgments. I suspect most people if told of an island where people eat shit, would be willing to make some non-zero expenditure to stop it. That doesn't mean they're basing their judgment on moral principles.
I'm interested if that is the real objection though.
Presumably it is possible to design a more humane farming system such that the quality of farmed animal life is > 0 (i.e. these are genuinely lives worth living). Presumably it is also possible to legislate to enforce such a system on meat producers.
And it may well be easier to do that than to persuade everyone to give up eating meat, or to persuade them voluntarily to eat humane meat (at a higher price). So that on consequentialist grounds, campaigning for "humane farms" legislation is a better strategy.
But that's not what the original poster is advocating. I'm not sure why.
I'm not sure whether that would be feasible. The current rate of meat consumption in affluent countries is already straining the global amount of resources, and projections suggest that meat consumption is on the rise. Increasing animal welfare while keeping production constant (or even scaling it) will be even more inefficient and will require even more resources. So this only seems feasible if you reduce the overall rate of consumption, and how would you do that more effectively than by promoting vegetarianism or something similar?
This is a great argument, and is known as the "Logic of the Larder" (for reasons I have never comprehended). This paper goes into more detail than you probably care about; the main point is that your guess:
Isn't generally true, because wild animals have a much greater density than farm animals.
This essay's thesis is that we should eat less meat, but its evidence is only that factory-farmed meat is a problem.
Most (but not all) of the meat I eat is not factory-farmed. The coop where I buy my meat says (pdf) that it buys only "humanely and sustainably raised" meat and poultry ... from animals that are free to range on chemical-free pastures, raised on a grass-based diet with quality grain used only as necessary, never given hormones and produced and processed by small-scale farmers." (For eggs, the coop does offer less-humane options, but I only buy the most-humane ones).
I might stop eating most of the factory-farmed meat that I eat. It would simply mean never eating out at non-frou-frou places. The exception would be dealing with non-local family (for local family, I could simply bring meat from the coop to share).
That said, it's hard to know when a restaurant is serving humanely raised meat. It seems like it would be nice to have a site where I could type in a restaurant's name, and find out who their suppliers are and what standards they adhere to. For the vast majority of restaurants, the answer would be that they just don't care. But, at least in NYC, it's common for foodie sorts of restaurants to list their suppliers. My favorite restaurant, Momofuku, for instance, sometimes specifically lists that some dish's meat is from e.g. Niman Ranch. Niman Ranch claims to raise their animals humanely. Do they really? And such a site would increase the pressure on restaurants to choose humane suppliers.
I only think factory-farmed meat is the problem. I use "eat less meat" as a shorthand, since nearly all meat is factory-farmed meat.
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I definitely agree it's better to buy "humanely raised" meat and poultry than not "humanely raised" meat/poultry. And perhaps you have found a trustworthy source.
But be careful of why I put "humanely raised" in quotes -- many such operations are not actually humane. Cage-free is much better than not cage-free, but conditions are still pretty bad. Free-range is better than not free-range, but just legally requires the animal be allowed to stay outside. There are no legal restrictions on the quality of the outside section, how long they can stay outside, or crowding. Vegan Outreach has more information.
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That sounds like an excellent idea!
I was going to ask what you thought about http://www.certifiedhumane.com/ but it is completely fucking useless: "The Animal Care Standards for Chickens Used in Broiler Production do not require that chickens have access to range." So nevermind.
So instead I'll ask why a meaningful set of standards doesn't exist. http://www.globalanimalpartnership.org/ Step 5, maybe? Their web site sucks, because it doesn't give me a searchable list of products, but maybe they just need some help.
Anyway, this seems like it would be a way more effective thing for EAA to do than just about anything else -- I bet lots more people would be willing to pay more for meat, than would be convinceable to eat less meat directly.
That sounds like it could be a good idea. One immediate problem I see with this is that most consumers wouldn't be able to distinguish EAA's label from the dozens of nearly-meaningless labels such as "Free Range", "Cage-Free", etc.
It would take a serious marketing campaign. But Givewell seems to be increasingly popular -- they would probably promote a well-designed program.
Factory-farmed meat converts photosynthetic energy (grass) to food much more efficiently than free-range farming. Factory farming requires less inputs in terms of arable land and water, and emits less CO2. If everyone in the world ate non-factory farmed meat, we would have to cut down the Amazon many times over, thereby drastically reducing earth's capacity to convert CO2 back to carbohydrates.
When you decide whether your meat should be factory farmed or not, , there are consequences on two scales that are negatively correlated: Animal welfare and global warming. Which of these scales you give most weight to, will depend on your prior for anthropogenic global warming, on your beliefs about the consequences of global warming, and on the priority you give animals in your aggregation scheme over individuals with moral standing.
I hadn't considered that. Do you have any sources for your claims?
Personally, I don't eat meat of any type, so this wouldn't be a problem for my diet.
A source is "Allison, Richard. “Organic chicken production criticised for leaving a larger carbon footprint.” Poultry World. 1 Mar. 2007". This article is behind a paywall. I am pasting a table from the article:
AVERAGE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT FROM POULTRY PRODUCTION (% DIFFERENCE TO CONVENTIONAL) Organic Free range
Energy use +33% +25%
Global warming potential (CO2) +46% +20%
Eutrophication potential +75% +28%
Acidification potential +52% +33%
Pesticide use (dose/ha) -92% +12%
Note: This article is in a trade publication and could be biased. It is based on an original report which I could not locate, and which apparently has sparse data. Obviously, more research is needed.
My prior beliefs are not the result of scientific studies, but follow from the following observations:
(1) To reduce global warming, we need to maximize the number of calories produced per unit of CO2 emission
(2) The most effective way we can alter that ratio, is by reducing the amount of biochemical energy that is used to power the biochemical processes of farm animals over the course of their lives. This is primarily a function of duration of their lives.
(3) Factory farming achieves shorter duration, by having the animals grow more quickly
(4) Another way we can reduce the net amount of CO2 produced per unit food, is by reducing the amount of land used, thus allowing less deforestation.
(5) Factory farming achieves this by using less land
(6) I cannot see any other mechanisms that differ between factory farming and organic farming which would have a major net effect on the carbon cycle.
Modern farming techniques are designed to minimize labor, especially managerial labor, not energy.
Factory-farmed animals don't eat grass. This is a really important detail.
That's not quite what the source (beware, unpleasant images) says;
An animal that is allowed to go outside every day, but always chooses not to, satisfies the latter but not the former. Which is actually the case? Moreover, these are very morally distinct! People who are forced to stay in a cell are prisoners; people who choose to stay in a cell are recluses.
How much of that is US-specific? According to defra:
source
The shareholders of Niman Ranch voted to reduce their standards to increase profits. As a result, Bill Niman (who originally founded the company) now refuses to eat their products, Wikipedia has more
Don't farmers kill huge numbers of animals when they grow food because of tractors running over animals or from chemicals designed to kill animals that would otherwise eat the grown food? I suspect that most of the marginal animal suffering arising from my eating steak comes from the production of the food used to feed the cow.
Yes, food has to be grown to feed cows, quite a lot of food. Apparently it takes about 10 times as much land to make a certain number of calories in the form of animals compared to other foods. So if you're worried about the wild animals being killed when you eat then that's an argument for not eating animals and animal products.
I don't know for sure, but that would be pretty surprising. I know that tractors often kill animals, but I don't think it's in sufficiently high quantity to dominate.
Regardless, as you mention, eating meat requires even more grain than eating grain directly, so the vegetarian/vegan diet still results in less animal deaths.
This is a great point, and was advanced by Steven Davis, who claimed that eating grass-fed cows would cause fewer deaths than being vegetarian. Matheny however found an error in his calculation - you can see the paper for full details, but the short version is that veg diets cause much less harm.
In addition to what others have said, I think it's important to distinguish between killing and suffering. The real problem here isn't the killing of animals; it's the suffering they undergo before they're killed. I don't know what it's like for those animals that die as a result of agriculture, but suppose they generally have painful deaths that last for several hours. On the other hand, animals on factory farms suffer greatly for a much longer period of time.
Thanks for posting this Peter. I've found it hard to find an action with a higher benefit/cost ratio than ordering a bean burrito instead of a chicken one, and I'm interested to see what others have to say on the subject.
I agree only If the bean burrito is cheaper and if the saved money goes to the best cause.
As someone who agrees with (almost) everything you wrote above, I fear that you haven't seriously addressed what I take to be any of the best arguments against vegetarianism, which are:
Present Triviality. Becoming a vegetarian is at least a minor inconvenience — it restricts your social activities, forces you to devote extra resources to keeping yourself healthy, etc. If you're an Effective Altruist, then your time, money, and mental energy would be much better spent on directly impacting society than on changing your personal behavior. Even minor inconveniences and attention drains will be a net negative. So you should tell everyone else (outside of EA) to be a vegetarian, but not be one yourself.
Future Triviality. Meanwhile, almost all potential suffering and well-being lies in the distant future; that is, even if we have only a small chance of expanding to the stars, the aggregate value for that vast sum of life dwarfs that of the present. So we should invest everything we have into making it as likely as possible that humans and non-humans will thrive in the distant future, e.g., by making Friendly AI that values non-human suffering. Even minor distractions from that goal are a big net loss.
Experiential Suffering Needn't Correlate With Damage-Avoiding or Damage-Signaling Behavior. We have reason to think the two correlate in humans (or at least developed, cognitively normal humans) because we introspectively seem to suffer across a variety of neural and psychological states in our own lives. Since I remain a moral patient while changing dramatically over a lifetime, other humans, who differ from me little more than I differ from myself over time, must also be moral patients. But we lack any such evidence in the case of non-humans, especially non-humans with very different brains. For the same reason we can't be confident that four-month-old fetuses feel pain, we can't be confident that cows or chickens feel pain. Why is the inner experience of suffering causally indispensable for neurally mediated damage-avoiding behavior? If it isn't causally indispensable, then why think it is selected at all in non-sapients? Alternatively, what indispensable mechanism could it be an evolutionarily unsurprising byproduct of?
Something About Sapience Is What Makes Suffering Bad. (Or, alternatively: Something about sapience is what makes true suffering possible.) There are LessWrongers who subscribe to the view that suffering doesn't matter, unless accompanied by some higher cognitive function, like abstract thought, a concept of self, long-term preferences, or narratively structured memories — functions that are much less likely to exist in non-humans than ordinary suffering. So even if we grant that non-humans suffer, why think that it's bad in non-humans? Perhaps the reason is something that falls victim to...
Aren't You Just Anthropomorphizing Non-Humans? People don't avoid kicking their pets because they have sophisticated ethical or psychological theories that demand as much. They avoid kicking their pets because they anthropomorphize their pets, reflexively put themselves in their pets' shoes even though there is little scientific evidence that goldfish and cockatoos have a valenced inner life. (Plus being kind to pets is good signaling, and usually makes the pets more fun to be around.) If we built robots that looked and acted vaguely like humans, we'd be able to make humans empathize with those things too, just as they empathize with fictional characters. But this isn't evidence that the thing empathized with is actually conscious.
I think these arguments can be resisted, but they can't just be dismissed out of hand.
You also don't give what I think is the best argument in favor of vegetarianism, which is that vegetarianism does a better job of accounting for uncertainty in our understanding of normative ethics (does suffering matter?) and our understanding of non-human psychology (do non-humans suffer?).
That's some excellent steelmanning. I would also add that creating animals for food with lives barely worth living is better than not creating them at all, from a utilitarian (if repugnant) point of view. And it's not clear whether a farm chicken's life is below that threshold.
Even if this is correct, in terms of value spreading it seems to be a very problematic message to convey. Most people are deontologists and would never even consider accepting this argument for human infants, so if we implicitly or explicitly accept it for animals, then this is just going to reinforce the prejudice that some forms of suffering are less important simply because they are not experienced by humans/our species. And such a defect in our value system may potentially have much more drastic consequences than the opportunity costs of not getting some extra live-years that are slightly worth living.
Then there is also an objection from moral uncertainty: If the animals in farms and especially factory farms (where most animals raised for food-purposes are held) are above "worth living", then barely so! It's not like much is at stake (the situation would be different if we'd wirehead them to experience constant orgasm). Conversely, if you're wrong about classical utilitarianism being your terminal value, then all the suffering inflicted on them would be highly significant.
I think it's fairly clear that a farm chicken's life is well below that threshold. If I had the choice between losing consciousness for an hour or spending an hour as a chicken on a factory farm, I would definitely choose the former.
Ninja Edit: I think a lot of people have poor intuitions when comparing life to non-life because our brains are wired to strongly shy away from non-life. That's why the example I gave above used temporary loss of consciousness rather than death. Even if you don't buy the above example, I think it's possible to see that factory-farmed life is worse than death. This article discussed how doctors--the people most familiar with medical treatment--frequently choose to die sooner rather than attempt to prolong their lives when they know they will suffer greatly in their last days. It seems that life on a factory farm would entail much more suffering than death by a common illness.
I probably would too, but I am not a chicken. I think you are over-anthropomorphizing them.
I don't see why a chicken would choose any differently. We have no reason to believe that chicken-suffering is categorically different from human-suffering.
If we were to put a bunch of chickens into a room, and on one side of the room was a wolf, and the other side had factory farming cages that protected the chickens from the wolf, I would expect the chickens to run into the cages.
It's true that chickens can comprehend a wolf much better than they can comprehend factory farming, but I'm not quite sure how that affects this thought experiment.
And I expect that a human would do the same thing.
I made a hash of that comment; I'm sorry.
This is a good point, and was raised below. Note that the argument doesn't seem to be factually true, independent of moral considerations. (You don't actually create more lives by eating meat.)
Robin Hanson has advocated this point of view.
I find the argument quite unconvincing; Hanson seems to be making the mistake of conflating "life worth living" with "not committing suicide" that is well addressed in MTGandP's reply (and grandchildren).
Good points!
1) This is indeed an important consideration, although I think for most people the inconveniences would only present themselves during the transition phase. Once you get used to it sufficiently and if you live somewhere with lots of tasty veg*an food options, it might not be a problem anymore. Also, in the social context, being a vegetarian can be a good conversation starter which one can use to steer the conversation towards whatever ethical issues one considers most important. ("I'm not just concerned about personal purity, I also want to actively prevent suffering. For instance...")
I suspect paying others to go veg*an for you might indeed be more effective, but especially for people who serve as social role models, personal choices may be very important as well, up to the point of being dominant.
2) Yeah but how is the AI going to care about non-human suffering if few humans (and, it seems to me, few people working on fAI) take it seriously?
3)-5) These are reasons for some probabilistic discounting, and then the question becomes whether it's significant enough. They don't strike me as too strong but this is worthy of discussion. Personally I never found 4. convincing at all but I'm curious as to whether people have arguments for this type of position that I'm not yet aware of.
1) I agree that being a good role model is an important consideration, especially if you're a good spokesperson or are just generally very social. To many liberals and EA folks, vegetarianism signals ethical consistency, felt compassion, and a commitment to following through on your ideals.
I'm less convinced that vegetarianism only has opportunity costs during transition. I'm sure it becomes easier, but it might still be a significant drain, depending on your prior eating and social habits. Of course, this doesn't matter as much if you aren't involved in EA, or are involved in relatively low-priority EA.
(I'd add that vegetarianism might also make you better Effective Altruist in general, via virtue-ethics-style psychological mechanisms. I think this is one of the very best arguments for vegetarianism, though it may depend on the psychology and ethical code of each individual EAist.)
2) Coherent extrapolated volition. We aren't virtuous enough to make healthy, scalable, sustainable economic decisions, but we wish we were.
3)-5) I agree that 4) doesn't persuade me much, but it's very interesting, and I'd like to hear it defended in more detail with a specific psychological model of what makes humans moral patients. 3) I think is a much more serious and convincing argument; indeed, it convinces me that at least some animals with complex nervous systems and damage-avoiding behavior do not suffer. Though my confidence is low enough that I'd probably still consider it immoral to, say, needlessly torture large numbers of insects.
2) Yes, I really hope CEV is going to come out in a way that also attributes moral relevance to nonhumans. But the fact that there might not be a unique way to coherently extrapolate values and that there might be arbitrariness in choosing the starting points makes me worried. Also, it is not guaranteed that a singleton will happen through an AI implementing CEV, so it would be nice to have a humanity with decent values as a back-up.
If you're worried that CEV won't work, do you have an alternative hope or expectation for FAI that would depend much more on humans' actual dietary practices?
Honestly, I find it most likely that an FAI would kill all non-human animals, because sustaining multiple species with very different needs and preferences is inefficient and/or because of meta-ethical or psychological uncertainty about the value of non-humans.
If we're more worried that non-humans might be capable of unique forms of suffering than we are worried that non-humans might be capable of unique forms of joy and beauty, then preventing their existence makes the most sense (once humans have no need for them). That includes destroying purely wild species, and includes ones that only harm each other and are not impacted by humanity.
It doesn't need to depend on people's dietary habits directly. A lot of people think animals count at least somewhat, but they might be too prone to rationalizing objections and too lazy to draw any significant practical conclusions from that. However, if those people were presented with a political initiative that replaces animal products by plant-based options that are just as good/healthy/whatever, then a lot of them would hopefully vote for it. In that sense, raising awareness for the issue, even if behavioral change is slow, may already be an important improvement to the meme-pool. Whatever utility functions society as a whole or those in power eventually decide to implement, is seems that this to at least some extent depends on the values of currently existing people (and especially people with high potential for becoming influential at some time in the future). This is why I consider anti-speciesist value spreading a contender for top priority.
I actually don't object to animals being killed, I'm just concerned about their suffering. But I suspect lots of people would object, so if it isn't too expensive, why not just take care of those animals that already exist and let them live some happy years before they die eventually? I'm especially talking about wild animals because for some animals, life in the wild might be as bad as in factory farms. And I think species-membership is ethically irrelevant, so there is no need for conservation in my view.
I don't want to fill the universe with animals, what would be the use of that? I'm mainly worried that people might decide to send out von Neumann probes to populate the whole universe with wildlife, or do ancestor simulations or other things that don't take into account animal suffering. Also, there might be a link between speciesism and "substratism", and of course I also care about all forms of conscious uploads and I wouldn't want them to suffer either.
The thought that highly temporally variable memes might define the values for our AGI worries me a whole lot. But I can't write the possibility off, so I agree this provides at least some reason to try to change the memetic landscape.
Ditto. It might be that killing in general is OK if it doesn't cause anyone suffering. Or, if we're preference utilitarians, it might be that killing non-humans is OK because their preferences are generally very short-term.
One interesting (and not crazy) alternative to lab-grown meat: If we figure out (with high confidence) the neural basis of suffering, we may be able to just switch it off in factory-farmed animals.
I'm about 95% confident that's almost never true. If factory-farmed animals didn't seem so perpetually scared (since fear of predation is presumably the main source of novel suffering in wild animals), or if their environment more closely resembled their ancestral environment, I'd find this line of argument more persuasive.
Yeah, I see no objections to eating meat from zombie-animals (or animals that are happy but cannot suffer). Though I can imagine that people would freak out about it.
Most animals in the wild use r-selection as a reproductive strategy, so they have huge amounts of offspring of which only one child per parent survives and reproduces successfully (if the population remains constant). This implies that the vast majority of wild animals die shortly after birth in ways that are presumably very painful. There is not enough time for having fun for these animals, even if life in the wild is otherwise nice (and that's somewhat doubtful as well). We have to discount the suffering somewhat due to the possibility that newborn animals might not be conscious at the start, but it still seems highly likely that suffering dominates for wild animals, given these considerations about the prevalence of r-selection.
Yes, but we agree death itself isn't a bad thing, and I don't think most death is very painful and prolonged. Prolonged death burns calories, so predators tend to be reasonably efficient. (Parasites less so, though not all parasitism is painful.) Force-feeding your prey isn't unheard of, but it's unusual.
If we're worried about lost opportunities for short-lived animals, are we also worried about lost opportunities for counterfactual animals that easily could have existed? Also, I agree it's bad for an organism to suffer for 100% of a very short life, but it's not necessarily any better for it to suffer for 80% of a life that's twice as long.
Oh, I have no doubt that suffering dominates for just about every sentient species on Earth. That's part of why I suspect an FAI would drive nearly all species to extinction. What I doubt is that this suffering exceeds the suffering in typical factory farms. These organisms aren't evolved to navigate environments like factory farms, so it's less likely that they'll have innate coping mechanisms for the horrors of pen life than for the horrors of jungle life. If factory farm animals are sentient, then their existence is probably hell, i.e., a superstimulus exceeding the pain and fear and frustration and sadness (if these human terms can map on to nonhuman psychology) they could ever realistically encounter in the wild.
Yes, it would be hard give a good reason for treating these differently, unless you're a preference utilitarian and think there is no point in creating new preference-bundles just in order to satisfy them later. I was arguing from within a classical utilitarian perspective, even though I don't share this view (I'm leaning towards negative utilitarianism), in order to make the point that suffering dominates in nature. I see though, you might be right about factory farms being much worse on average. Some of the footage certainly is, even though the worst instance of suffering I've ever watched was an elephant being eaten by lions.
If it wanted to maximize positive states of consciousness, it would probably kill all sentient beings and attempt to convert all the matter in the universe into beings that efficiently experience large amounts of happiness. I find it plausible that this would be a good thing. See here for more discussion.
I don't find that unlikely. (I think I'm a little less confident than Eliezer that something CEV-like would produce values actual humans would recognize, from their own limited perspectives, as preferable. Maybe my extrapolations are extrapolateder, and he places harder limits on how much we're allowed to modify humans to make them more knowledgeable and rational for the purpose of determining what's good.)
But I'm less confident that a correctly-constructed (i.e., Friendly) CEV calculation would replace humans with something radically nonhuman, than that CEV would kill all or most non-humans. Humans care a lot more about themselves than about other species, and are less confident about non-human subjectivity.
Of course, I suppose the reverse is a possibility. Maybe some existing non-human terrestrial species has far greater capacities for well-being, or is harder to inflict suffering on, than humans are, and an FAI would kill humans and instead work on optimizing that other species. I find that scenario much less plausible than yours, though.
If a CEV did this then I believe it would be acting unethically--at the very least, I find it highly implausible that, among the hundreds of thousands(?) of sentient species, homo sapiens is capable of producing the most happiness per unit of resources. This is a big reason why I feel uneasy about the idea of creating a CEV from human values. If we do create a CEV, it should take all existing interests into account, not just the interests of humans.
It also seems highly implausible that any extant species is optimized for producing pleasure. After all, evolution produces organisms that are good at carrying on genes, not feeling happy. A superintelligent AI could probably create much more effective happiness-experiencers than any currently-living beings. This seems to be similar to what you're getting at in your last paragraph.
I don't understand how CEV would be capable of deducing that non-human animals have moral value purely from current human values.
CEV asks what humans would value if their knowledge and rationality were vastly greater. I don't find it implausible that if we knew more about the neural underpinnings of our own suffering and pleasure, knew more about the neurology of non-humans, and were more rational and internally consistent in relating this knowledge to our preferences, then our preferences would assign at least some moral weight to the well-being of non-sapients, independent of whether that well-being impacts any sapient.
As a simpler base case: I think the CEV of 19th-century slave-owners in the American South would have valued black and white people effectively equally. Do we at least agree about that much?
I don't know much about CEV (I started to read Eliezer's paper but I didn't get very far), but I'm not sure it's possible to extrapolate values like that. What if 19th-century slave owners hold white-people-are-better as a terminal value?
On the other hand, it does seem plausible that slave owner would oppose slavery if he weren't himself a slave owner, so his CEV may indeed support racial equality. I simply don't know enough about CEV or how to implement it to make a judgment one way or the other.
Terminal values can change with education. Saying that the coherent extrapolated volition of 19th-century slave owners would have been racist is equivalent to saying that either racism is justified by the facts, or the fundamental norms of rationality latent in 19th-century slave-owner cognition are radically unlike our contemporary fundamental norms of rationality. For instance, slave-owners don't don't on any deep level value consistency between their moral intuitions, or they assign zero weight to moral intuitions involving empathy.
If new experiences and rationality training couldn't ever persuade a slave-owner to become an egalitarian, then I'm extremely confused by the fact that society has successfully eradicated the memes that restructured those slave-owners' brains so quickly. Maybe I'm just more sanguine than most people about the possibility that new information can actually change people's minds (including their values). Science doesn't progress purely via the eradication of previous generations.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that framing. If an ethical feature changes with education, that's good evidence that it's not a terminal value, to whatever extent that it makes sense to talk about terminal values in humans. Which may very well be "not very much"; our value structure is a lot messier than that of the theoretical entities for which the terminal/instrumental dichotomy works well, and if we had a good way of cleaning it up we wouldn't need proposals like CEV.
People can change between egalitarian and hierarchical ethics without neurological insults or biochemical tinkering, so human "terminal" values clearly don't necessitate one or the other. More importantly, though, CEV is not magic; it can resolve contradictions between the ethics you feed into it, and it might be able to find refinements of those ethics that our biases blind us to or that we're just not smart enough to figure out, but it's only as good as its inputs. In particular, it's not guaranteed to find universal human values when evaluated over a subset of humanity.
If you took a collection of 19th-century slave owners and extrapolated their ethical preferences according to CEV-like rules, I wouldn't expect that to spit out an ethic that allowed slavery -- the historical arguments I've read for the practice didn't seem very good -- but I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it did, either. Either way it wouldn't imply that the resulting ethic applies to all humans or that it derives from immutable laws of rationality; it'd just tell us whether it's possible to reconcile slavery with middle-and-upper-class 19th-century ethics without downstream contradictions.
Do you think the kind of pain I feel while (say) eating spicy foods is bad whether or not I dislike it?
I think the word "pain" is misleading. What I care about precisely is suffering, defined as a conscious state a being wants to get out of. If you don't dislike it and don't have an urge to make it stop, it's not suffering. This is also why I think the "pain" of people with pain asymbolia is not morally bad.
Your points (1) and (2) seem like fully general counterarguments against any activity at all, other than the single most effective activity at any given time. I do agree with you that future suffering could potentially greatly outweigh present suffering, and I think it's very important to try to prevent future suffering of non-human animals. However, it seems that one of the best ways to do that is to encourage others to care more for the welfare of non-human animals, i.e. become veg*ans.
Perhaps more importantly, it makes sense from a psychological perspective to become a veg*an if you care about non-human animals. It seems that if I ate meat, cognitive dissonance would make it much harder for me to make an effort to prevent non-human suffering on a broader scale.
(4): Although I see no way to falsify this belief, I also don't see any reason to believe that it's true. Furthermore, it runs counter to my intuitions. Are profoundly mentally disabled humans incapable of "true" suffering?
(5): Humans and non-human animals evolved in the same way, so it strikes me as highly implausible that humans would be capable of suffering while all non-humans would lack this capacity.
That's more or less what I intended them to be. Isn't doing only the most effective activities available to you... a good idea?
However, I'd phrase the argument in terms of degrees: Activities are good to the extent they conduce to your making better decisions for the future, bad to the extent they conduce to your making worse decisions for the future. So doing the dishes might be OK even if it's not the Single Best Thing You Could Possibly Be Doing Right Now, provided it indirectly helps you do better things than you otherwise would. Some suboptimal things are more suboptimal than others.
Maybe? If you could give such an argument, though, it would show that my argument isn't a fully general counterargument -- vegetarianism would be an exception, precisely because it would be the optimal decision.
Right. I think the disagreement is about the ethical character of vegetarianism, not about whether it's a psychologically or aesthetically appealing life-decision (to some people). It's possible to care about the wrong things, and it's possible to assign moral weight to things that don't deserve it. Ghosts, blastocysts, broccoli stalks, abstract objects....
To assess (4) I think we'd need to look at the broader ethical and neurological theories that entail it, and assess the evidence for and against them. This is a big project. Personally, my uncertainty about the moral character of non-sapients is very large, though I think I lean in your direction. (Actually, my uncertainty and confusion about most things sapience- and sentience- related are very large.)
Within practical limits. It's not effective altruism if you drive yourself crazy trying to hold yourself to unattainable standards and burn yourself out.
Practical limits are built into 'effective'. The most effective activity for you to engage in is the most effective activity for you to engage in, not for a perfectly rational arbitrarily computationally powerful god to engage in. Going easy on yourself, to the optimal degree, is (for creatures like us) part of behaving optimally at all. If your choice (foreseeably) burns you out, and the burnout isn't worth the gain, your choice was just wrong.
I felt like it was a bit unfair for you to use fully general counterarguments against veganism in particular. However, after your most recent reply, I can better see where you're coming from. I think a better message to take from this essay (although I'm not sure Peter would agree) is that *people in general should eat less meat, not necessarily you in particular. If you can get one other person to become a veg*an in lieu of becoming one yourself, that's just as good.
If non-vegans are less effective at reducing suffering than vegans due to a quirk of human psychology (i.e. cognitive dissonance preventing them from caring sufficiently about non-humans), then this becomes an ethical issue and not just a psychological one.
I agree with you here. I feel sufficiently confident that animal suffering matters, but the empirical evidence here is rather weak.
Wouldn't you agree that veganism is less suboptimal than say entertainment? I'm assuming you're okay with people playing video games, going to the movies etc. even if those activities don't accomplish any long term altruistic goals. So I don't know what your issue with veganism is.
Depends. For a lot of people, some measure of entertainment helps recharge their batteries and do better work, much more so than veganism probably would. I'll agree that excessive recreational time is a much bigger waste (for otherwise productive individuals) than veganism. I'm not singling veganism out here; it just happens to be the topic of discussion for this thread. If veganism recharges altruists' batteries in a way similar to small amounts of recreation, and nothing better could do the job in either case, then veganism is justifiable for the same reason small amounts of recreation is.
I suspect that most people engage in much more entertainment than is necessary for recharging their batteries to do more work. I hope you don't think that entertainment and recreation are justifiable only because they allow us to work.
This sounds like a fully general counterargument against doing almost anything at all.
Yes. I would interpret that as meaning that people spend too much time having small amounts of fun, rather than securing much larger amounts of fun for their descendants.
No, fun is intrinsically good. But it's not so hugely intrinsically good that this good can outweigh large opportunity costs. And our ability to impact the future is large enough that small distractions, especially affecting people with a lot of power to change the world, can have big costs. I'm with Peter Singer on this one; buying a fancy suit is justifiable if it helps you save starving Kenyans, but if it comes at the expense of starving Kenyans then you're responsible for taking that counterfactual money from them. And time, of course, is money too.
(I'm not sure this is a useful way for altruists to think about their moral obligations. It might be too stressful. But at this point I'm just discussing the obligations themselves, not the ideal heuristics for fulfilling them.)
It is, as long as you keep in mind that for every degree of utility there's an independent argument favoring that degree over the one right below it. So it's a fully general argument schema: 'For any two incompatible options X and Y, if utility(X) > utility(Y), don't choose Y if you could instead choose X.' This makes it clear that the best option is preferable to all suboptimal options, even though somewhat suboptimal things are a lot better than direly suboptimal ones.
I don't engage in the vast majority of possible activities. Neither do you, so on net, the class of arguments you accept must mitigate against almost all activities, right?
Are you saying that most arguments that you should to X are fully general counterarguments against doing anything other than X?
Why did you type that comment? Did you consider the arguments for typing that comment as fully general counterarguments against all the other possible comments you could have made? If not, why not post them too?
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. It sounds like you're saying that we make decisions without considering all possible arguments for and against them, in which case I'm not sure what you're saying with regard to my original comment.
To construct the comment that you just replied to, I considered various possible questions that I roughly rated by how effectively they would help me to understand what you're saying, and limited my search due to time constraints. The arguments for posting that comment work as counterarguments against posting any other comment I considered, e.g. it was the best comment I considered. It's not the best possible comment, but it would be a waste of time to search the entirety of comment-space to find the optimal comment.
No I don't decide what to do with my time by coming up with arguments ruling out every other activity that I could be doing.
You're right it might have been good to answer these in the core essay.
I disagree that being a vegetarian is an inconvenience. I haven't found my social activities restricted in any non-trivial way and being healthy has been just as easy/hard as when eating meat. It does not drain my attention from other EA activities.
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I agree with this in principle, but again don't think vegetarianism is a stop from that. Certainly removing factory farming is a small win compared to successful star colonization, but I don't think there's much we can do now to ensure successful colonization, while there is stuff we can do now to ensure factory farming elimination.
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It need not, which is what makes consciousness thorny. I don't think there is a tidy resolution to this problem. We'll have to take our best guess, and that involves thinking nonhuman animals suffer. We'd probably even want to err on the safe side, which would increase our consideration toward nonhuman animals. It would also be consistent with an Ocham's razor approach.
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This doesn't feature among my ethical framework, at least. I don't know how this intuitively works for other people. I also don't think there's much I can say about it.
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It's not. But there's other considerations and lines of evidence, so my worry that we're just anthropomorphizing is present, but rather low.
Regarding (4) (and to a certain extent 3 and 5): I assume you agree that a species feels phenomenal pain just in case it proves evolutionarily beneficial. So why would it improve fitness to feel pain only if you have "abstract thought"?
The major reason I have heard for phenomenal pain is learning, and all vertebrates show long-term behavior modification as the result of painful stimuli, as anyone who has taken a pet to the vet can verify. (Notably, many invertebrates do not show long-term modification, suggesting that vertebrate vs. invertebrate may be a non-trivial distinction.)
Richard Dawkins has even suggested that phenomenal pain is inversely related to things like "abstract thought", although I'm not sure I would go that far.
Actually, I'm an eliminativist about phenomenal states. I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that the illusion of phenomenal states is restricted to humans, but I don't think that this illusion is necessary for one to be a moral patient. Suppose we encountered an alien species whose computational substrate and architecture was so exotic that we couldn't rightly call anything it experienced 'pain'. Nonetheless it might experience something suitably pain-like, in its coarse-grained functional roles, that we would be monsters to start torturing members of this species willy-nilly.
My views about non-human animals are similar. I suspect their psychological states are so exotic that we would never recognize them as pain, joy, sorrow, surprise, etc. (I'd guess this is more true for the positive states than the negative ones?) if we merely glimpsed their inner lives directly. But the similarity is nonetheless sufficient for our taking their alien mental lives seriously, at least in some cases.
So, I suspect that phenomenal pain as we know it is strongly tied to the evolution of abstract thought, complex self-models, and complex models of other minds. But I'm open to non-humans having experiences that aren't technically pain but that are pain-like enough to count for moral purposes.
I guess maybe I just didn't understand how you were using the term "pain" - I agree that other species will feel things differently, but being "pain-like enough to count for moral purposes" seems to be the relevant criterion here.
How about becoming a mostly vegetarian? Avoid eating meat... unless it would be really inconvenient to do so.
Depending on your specific situations, perhaps you could reduce your meat consumption by 50%, which from the utilitarian viewpoint is 50% as good as becoming a full vegetarian. And the costs are trivial.
This is what I am doing recently, and it works well for me. For example, if I have a lunch menu, by default I read the vegetarian option first, and I choose otherwise only if it is something I dislike (or if it contains sugar), which is maybe 20% of cases. The only difficult thing was to do it for the first week, then it works automatically; it is actually easier than reading the full list and deciding between similar options.
I think that would pretty much do away with the 'it's a minor inconvenience' objections. However, I suspect it would also diminish most of the social and psychological benefits of vegetarianism -- as willpower training, proof to yourself of your own virtue, proof to others of your virtue, etc. Still, this might be a good option for EAists to consider.
It's worth keeping in mind that different people following this rule will end up committing to vegetarianism to very different extents, because both the level of inconvenience incurred, and the level of inconvenience that seems justifiable, will vary from person to person.
I can train my willpower on many other situations, so that's not an issue. So it's about the virtue, or more precisely, signalling. Well, depending on one's mindset, one can find a "feeling of virtue" even in this. Whether the partial vegetarianism is easier to spread than full vegetarianism, I don't know -- and that is probably the most important part. But some people spreading full vegetarianism, and other people spreading partial vegetarianism where the former fail, feels like a good solution.
A strong asertion of this principle can be foud here
My other comment was downvoted below the troll level, so I'll ask here. Suppose we found a morphine-like drug which effectively and provably wireheads chickens to be happy with their living conditions, and with no side effects for humans consuming the meat. Would that answer your arguments about suffering?
I'd be happy with that.
Until we do, I'm not eating meat.
Personally, my issues with eating meat are at least as much about ecological concerns as humane ones, but I would definitely be in favor of eating vat meat which can be cultured with minimal ecological impact.
I agree with others that vegetarianism is likely more practical and addresses other concerns besides suffering. However, perhaps there is a lot of utility that could be gained in the near term by e.g. keeping factory-farmed animals high on morphine for most of their lives. Would this impose additional costs that keep it from being economical? One would be food purity -- people might not like morphine in their meat/eggs/milk.
Opiates quickly build tolerance. They're also not terribly cheap, although fully synthetic opioids like methadone would probably be more amenable to production at these scales than poppy derivatives like morphine.
Uhm, somehow it feels even worse. I am not taking this feeling as a rational answer to the question, just as a warning that the topic may be more difficult than it seems. (One possible explanation is Shelling point against using wireheading as a solution.)
Are your intuitions captured by this short Sandel essay? Specifically, the fourth-to-last paragraph.
Interesting, but no.
My objection was based on imagining a chicken that is hurt physically, but doesn't care, because the morphine supressed the pain. It was not in the comment, but I imagined that animals would be treated the same way as they are now (perhaps even worse, because if they don't react painfully, there will be even less sympathy for them), they just wouldn't subjectively suffer because of the morphine. That I find abhorent.
If the chicken or other animals are just modified to be content with being in prison, and they are not harmed in any other way, I would be okay with that. Actually, I would consider that ethically better than them living in nature.
The article seems to me about not playing god, but I don't worship the blind idiot god. If it is okay for evolution to give tails to some animals and not give tails to other animals, it is not different if people add or remove the tails genetically (assuming that kind of change does not harm the animal; for example a pig without the tail could have problem to fight off flies).
I also wouldn't have a problem with parents choosing a gender, height, or eye color for their children; I would be only concerned with crazy parents making choices that harm their child (for example the parents would choose some disability for their child, and the politically correct people would protect this choice to avoid offending the existing disabled people). Which would lead to gray area of traits where there is no general agreement whether they are harmful or not. But the true objection is against choosing harmful changes, not against changes per se.
It sounds like you understand 'content' to mean 'pain-free and suffering-free', whereas I imagine it as something more like 'suffering-free'. I have masochist friends who are content (or far more than content) to experience pain, because of the positive valence they ascribe to (or associate with) that pain. How does your empathy for chickens that feel pain but don't care respond to human masochism?
I think Sandel's argument is that we might have a basic, not-culturally-constructed anti-tampering moral intuition that doesn't depend on there being a God whose authority we are impinging on (any more than the thankfulness we feel when something spectacularly good happens in our life presupposes that there is a metaphysical being out there who is the Object Of Our Thanks). Which I don't find psychologically implausible, though if it's a harmful intuition and can't be brought into reflective equilibrium with our other moral intuitions then it might deserve suppression.
I don't have enough data about how masochism feels from inside, so I don't feel qualified to answer this. (I know about cases where people cause themselves pain to forget some other pain, physical or mental. I don't know if a typical masochist is like this, or completely different, and in the latter case, how specifically it feels from inside.)
"Suppose we found a morphine-like drug which effectively and provably wireheads NON-WHITE PEOPLE to be happy with their living conditions, and with no side effects for WHITE PEOPLE consuming their flesh."
Has a different sort of emotional impact, no?
Mostly it sounds like you are calling all NON-WHITE PEOPLE chickens.
Not sure why the parent is downvoted, it's an interesting question. Where does one build a Schelling fence for farming meat without suffering?
This is a silly strawman, but I'll respond anyway, because why not.
The difference is that we (well, not me, but the OP and people who agree with him) only care about chickens to the extent that they are (allegedly) suffering, and we think it's not ok for them to suffer. On the other hand, we think that NON-WHITE PEOPLE (just like WHITE PEOPLE) have the right of self-determination, that it's wrong to forcibly modify their minds, etc.
This is not at all an unrealistic possibility. It probably will be via gene knockout rather than a drug injection, if it happens. See Adam Shriver, "Knocking Out Pain in Livestock: Can Technology Succeed Where Morality Has Stalled?"
If this doesn't happen, it will probably be either because lab-grown meat ended up being cheaper to mass-produce, or because the people strongly pushing for animal rights were too squeamish to recognize the value of this option.
I woudn;t hasten to describe them a confused. How about the modest proposal of growing acephalus humans for consumption? Is that too far down the slope?
Well, currently it's even prohibited for organ replacement, for knee-jerk reasons.
My brain really, really, really wanted to read "knee jerky" there.
I wonder about my brain sometimes.
Thanks, it's a great link. I didn't know that it is possible to manipulate pain affect separately from pain sensitivity on a genetic level. I wonder how animal rights advocates react to this approach.
You know those Chick-fil-A advertisements with the cows beseeching you to eat more chicken? The ironic thing is, if you eat more chickens, there will actually be more chickens in the world, and if you eat fewer cows, there will be fewer cows in the world. It's just supply and demand. The survival of cows and chickens is controlled by the farmers, who are profit-oriented. If it stops being profitable to raise cows for the slaughter, then cows won't be raised at all.
Or consider this: suppose everyone in the world right now switches to vegetarianism. All the cows and chickens on the farms will die. The farmers will have no incentive to feed them. They'll kill the cows for their leather and the chickens for their...I have no idea, and any animals they don't kill will be left to starve, with all their independent survival ability bred and raised out of them.
I would be willing to become vegetarian were it not for my belief that the only way to keep cows alive is to eat them. How do you speak to that concern?
Is it better never to have been born than to be born, raised in cruel conditions, and then slaughtered? The answer is not obvious to me.
There are some other comments in this thread to that effect. In short, it's worth keeping animals alive if their lives are worth living. In the case of animals on factory farms, their lives are so horrible that they're probably not worth living. To find more comments on this thread, ctrl-F "not worth living".
If a being constantly wants to get out of its current state, i.e. if it lives in constant agony, how could that be preferable to non-existence? Maybe if there was an overriding will to live (installed perhaps by an evil AI programmer or by evolution) then one could attempt to make a case for this, but wouldn't such an unfortunate state of affairs still be bad for the being in question? When you talk about "cruel conditions", are you trying to imagine them vividly? Have you watched footage from factory farms? I'm just curious because I'm genuinely puzzled by how much people's intuitions can differ.
Should we all start eating mice/rats instead of cows if this increases the amount of animal sentience by several orders of magnitude?
I see now that the question of whether it is better never to be born than to be raised cruelly is a distraction and misleading. What I'm really trying to get at is, what happens to the animals after most people become vegetarians? The most obvious answer is that they all die, both because people will kill them to squeeze any remaining profits out of them that they can, and because people will stop trying to keep them alive. Even if humans keep a few cows and chickens in a zoo somewhere, it still looks like most of the species will die. How do advocates of vegetarianism address the problem of what you do with the animals after everybody becomes vegetarian? This question is what keeps me from becoming vegetarian.
It depends on one's reasons for vegetarianism. Personally I'm vegetarian because it prevents suffering. I don't value a species, I value individuals. A species is just a categorization that cannot feel pain or pleasure. We can imagine a continuous line-up of daughter, mother, grandmother and so on, up to the point of the last common ancestor of humans and cows, and then forwards in time again to modern cows. Within that line-up, there would be thousands of species, and virtually all of them went extinct already. A common definition of "species" is that groups of animals belong to different species if they cannot have fertile offspring together. I don't see how this is a relevant criterion for awarding moral concern to species rather than individuals. And as for the individual cows, yes, they would die eventually (and then we might as well eat them), but so they would if we keep breeding more cows for food-purposes, so I don't quite see the point.
In that case, what's your plan to prevent the suffering of all the animals that will die should too many people switch to vegetarianism?
Those very animals will also die if people don't switch to vegetarianism, and then new animals will be bred and they will die too.
Yes, but it's bad. You're trying to stop animal death and suffering that is a product of our carnivorous habits by getting people to stop eating meat. But animals will also die and suffer as a result of us ceasing our carnivorous habits. What is your plan for preventing that?
Fewer animals means fewer deaths and suffering. I don't need to solve every single problem in the universe if I want to do something good. Hopefully though, a future AI will be able to reengineer whole ecosystems so the sentient beings in them won't have the biological capacity for suffering anymore.
I think this is a great point, but it has the opposite conclusion. Agriculture is the leading cause of habitat loss and meat consumption causes more greenhouse gas emissions than the entire transportation sector.
If we want to keep animals from going extinct, we have to eat less meat.
Cows, chickens, and other animals whose existence are entirely dependent on humans will go extinct if we stop eating them.
The problem of protecting animals, who are simply in our way and have nothing to offer us or any ability to protect themselves, except the few we can enslave and use as fuel for our hordes, is a very hard problem, and "Let's stop eating meat" is not satisfactory. Nor is it even an obviously necessary start.
I'm not certain I understand. Are you saying that fewer species will go extinct if people eat meat? Or are you agreeing that being veg is the best way to preserve biodiversity, but that you don't care about biodiversity?
The argument as I understand it is that profitable species are safeguarded like any other asset. If butterflies are disappearing for some reason, the response from most of society is a collective shrug. If honeybees are disappearing for some reason, the response from most of society is low-level anxiety, and several expert specialists devote significant time to understanding its cause and stopping it.
Is this sentence missing words? Should be "more than the number of ...", I assume?
Yes! Fixed, thanks!
I appreciate you making this post, peter_hurford (though I admit I skipped over the parts about vegetarianism's effectiveness and easiness, as those are not the parts of the argument I am interested in). However, I'm afraid that (as far as my objection to your view goes), your argument entirely begs the question.
You open with seemingly the following logic:
(1) We care about suffering.
(2) Animals can suffer.
(3) Animals do suffer.
(4) We can prevent animal suffering.
(5) By (1) and (4), we should prevent animal suffering.
But such a formulation leaves out some important qualifications. The actual logic behind your view is like so:
(1) We care about suffering, regardless of who or what is doing the suffering.
(2) Animals can suffer.
(3) Animals do suffer.
(4) We can prevent animal suffering.
(5) By (1) and (4), we should prevent animal suffering.
My objection was precisely to (1). Why should we care about suffering regardless of who or what is suffering? I care about the suffering of humans, or other beings of sufficient (i.e. approximately-human) intelligence to be self-aware. You seem to think I should care about "suffering"[1] more broadly. You take this broader caring as an assumption, but it's actually exactly what I'd like you to convince me of; otherwise, as far as I am concerned, your entire argument collapses.
[1] Though I easily grant that e.g. cows can experience pain, I am not entirely convinced that it's sensible to refer to their mental states and ours by the same word, "suffering". I think this terminological conflation, too, begs the question. But that is a side issue.
Why? I actually think this is an important consideration. Is "suffering" by definition something only humans can do? If so, isn't this arbitrarily restricting the definition? If not, do you doubt something empirical about nonhuman animal minds?
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You've characterized my argument correctly. It seems to me that most people already care about the suffering of nonhuman animals without quite realizing it, i.e. why they on the intuitive level resist kicking kittens and puppies. But I acknowledge that some people aren't like this.
I don't think there's a good track record for the success of moral arguments. As a moral anti-realist, I must admit that there's nothing irrational per se about restricting your moral sphere to humans. I guess my only counterargument would be that it seems weird and arbitrary.
What would you say to someone who thinks we should only care about the suffering of white humans of European descent? Would you be fine with that?
I try not to argue by definition, so it's the latter: I have empirical concerns. See this post, point 4 (but also 3 and 5), for a near-perfect summary of my concerns.
That said, my overall objection to your view does not hinge on this point.
Well, firstly, I have to point out that I am not restricting my moral sphere to humans, per se. (Of known existing creatures, dolphins may qualify for membership; of imaginable creatures, aliens and AIs might.) In any case, the circle I draw seems quite non-arbitrary, even obvious, to me; but I suppose this only speaks to the non-universality of moral intuitions.
That would indeed seem weird and arbitrary. One objection I might raise to such a person is that it's non-trivial, in many cases, to discern someone's "whiteness", not to mention one's exact ancestry. "European" is not a sharp boundary where humans are concerned, and a great many factors confound such categorization. Most of my other objections would be aimed at drawing out the moral intuitions behind this person's judgments about what sorts of beings are objects of morality (do they think "superficial" characteristics matter as much as functional ones? what is their response to various thought experiments such as brain transplant scenarios? etc.). It seems to me that there are both empirical facts and analytic arguments that would shift this person's position closer to my own; a logically contradictory, empirically incoherent, or reflectively inconsistent moral position is generally bound to be less convincing.
(Of course, I might answer entirely differently. I might say: no, I would not be fine with that, because my own ancestry may or may not be classified as "European" or "white", depending on who's doing the classifying. So I would, quite naturally, argue against a moral circle drawn thus. Moral anti-realism notwithstanding, I might convince some people (and in fact that seems to be, in part, how the American civil rights movement, and similar social movements across the world, have succeeded: by means of people who were previously outside the moral circle arguing for their own inclusion). Cows, of course, cannot attempt to persuade us that we should include them in our moral considerations. I do not take this to be an irrelevant fact.)
I think that fights the hypothetical a bit much. Imagine something a bit sharper, like citizenship. Why not restrict our moral sphere to US citizens? Or take Derek Parfit's within-a-mile altruism, where you only have concern for people within a mile of you. Weird, I agree. But irrational? Hard to demonstrate.
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So do you think nonhuman animals may not suffer? I agree that's a possibility, but it's not likely. What do you think of the body of evidence provided in this post?
I don't think there is a tidy resolution to this problem. We'll have to take our best guess, and that involves thinking nonhuman animals suffer. We'd probably even want to err on the safe side, which would increase our consideration toward nonhuman animals. It would also be consistent with an Ocham's razor approach.
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What would you suggest?
The moral sphere needn't work like a threshold, where one should extend equal concern to everyone within the sphere and no concern at all to anyone outside it. My moral beliefs are not cosmopolitan -- I think it is morally right to care more for my family than for absolute strangers. In fact, I think it is a huge failing of standard utilitarianism that it doesn't deliver this verdict (without having to rely on post-hoc contortions about long-term utility benefits). I also think it is morally acceptable to care more for people cognitively similar to me than for people cognitively distant (people with radically different interests/beliefs/cultural backgrounds).
This doesn't mean that I don't have any moral concern at all for the cognitively distant. I still think they're owed the usual suite of liberal rights, and that I have obligations of assistance to them, etc. It's just that I would save the life of one of my friends over the lives of, say, three random Japanese people, and I consider this the right thing to do.
I follow a similar heuristic when I move across species. I think we owe the great apes more moral consideration than we owe, say, dolphins. I don't eat any mammals but I eat chicken.
The idea of a completely cosmopolitan ethic just seems bizarre to me. I can see why one would be motivated to adopt it if the only alternative were caring about some subset of people/sentient beings and not caring at all about anyone else. Then there would be something arbitrary about where one draws the line. But this is not the most plausible alternative. One could have a sphere of moral concern that doesn't just stop suddenly but instead attenuates with distance.
The morality you suggest is what Derek Parfit calls collectively self-defeating. This means that if everyone were to follow it perfectly, there could be empirical situations where your actual goals, namely the well-being of those closest to you, are achieved less well than they would be if everyone followed a different moral view. So there could be situations in which people have more influence on the well-being of the family of strangers, and if they'd all favor their own relatives, everyone would end up worse off, despite everyone acting perfectly moral. Personally I want a world where everyone acts perfectly moral to be as close to Paradise as is empirically possible, but whether this is something you are concerned about is a different question (that depends on what question your seeking to answer by coming up with a coherent moral view).
By this reasoning everyone should give all their money and resources to charity (except to the extent that they need some of their resources to keep their job and make money).
Yes. At least as long as there are problems in the world. What's wrong with that?
Everyone, including nonhumans, would have their interests/welfare-function fulfilled as well as possible. If I had to determine the utility function of moral agents before being placed into the world in any position at random, I would choose some form of utilitarianism from a selfish point of view because it maximizes my expected well-being. If doing the "morally right" thing doesn't make the world a better place for the sentient beings in the world, I don't see a reason to call it "right". Also note that this is not an all-or-nothing issue, it seems unfruitful to single out only those actions that produce the perfect outcome, or the perfect outcome in expectation. Every improvement into the right direction counts, because every improvement leads to someone else being better off.
Also note that the view you outlined is often concerned with the question of helping others. When it comes to not harming others, many people would agree with the declaration of human rights that inflicting suffering is equally bad regardless of one's geographical or emotional proximity to the victims. Personal vegetarianism is an instance of not harming.
I basically agree with pragmatist's response, with the caveat only that I think many (most?) people's moral spheres have too steep a gradient between "family, for whom I would happily murder any ten strangers" and "strangers, who can go take a flying leap for all I care". My own gradient is not nearly that steep, but the idea of a gradient rather than a sharp border is sound. (Of course, since it's still the case that I would kill N chickens to save my grandmother, where N can be any number, it seems that chickens fall nowhere at all on this gradient.)
Well, you can phrase this as "nonhuman animals don't suffer", or as "nonhuman animal suffering is morally uninteresting", as you see fit; I'm not here to dispute definitions, I assure you. As for the evidence, to be honest, I don't see that you've provided any. What specifically do you think offers up evidence against points 3 through 5 of RobbBB's post?
I don't think so; or at least this is not obviously the case.
Well, just the stuff about boundaries and hypotheticals and such that you referred to as "fighting the hypothetical". Is there something specific you're looking for, here?
The essay cited the Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness, as well as a couple of other pieces of evidence.
Here is another (more informal) piece that I find compelling.
That's not evidence, that's a declaration of opinion.
In particular, reading things like "Evidence of near human-like levels of consciousness has been most dramatically observed in African grey parrots" (emphasis mine) makes me highly sceptical of that opinion.
African grays are pretty smart. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call them near-human, but from what I've read there's a case for putting them on par with cetaceans or nonhuman primates.
The real trouble is that the research into this sort of thing is fiendishly subjective and surprisingly sparse. Even a detailed ordering of relative animal intelligence involves a lot of decisions about which researchers to trust, and comparison with humans is worse.
Suppose morality is a 'mutual sympathy pact,' and it seems neither weird nor arbitrary to decide how sympathetic to be to others by their ability to be sympathetic towards you. Suppose instead that morality is a 'demonstration of compassion,' and the reverse effect holds--sympathizing with the suffering of those unable to defend themselves (and thus unable to defend you) demonstrates more compassion than the previous approach which requires direct returns. (There are, of course, indirect returns to this approach.)
I admit to being perplexed by this and some other pro-altruism posts on LW. If we're trying to be rationalists, shouldn't we come out and say: "I don't often care about other's suffering, especially of those people I don't know personally, but I do try and signal that I care because this signaling benefits me. Sometimes this signaling benefits others too, which is nice".
I agree everyone likely benefits from a society structured to reward altruism. We all might be in need of altruism one day. But there seems to be a disconnect between the prose of articles like this one and what I thought was the general rationalist belief that altruism in extended societies largely exists for signaling reasons.
Also, the benefits of altruism seem significantly less substantial when the targets are animals. Outside of personal experience animals are just unable to return any favors. If I save the lives of some children in Africa, I can hope those people contribute to the global economy and help make the world a better place for my children. Unfortunately the same cannot be said about my food.
I realize the article starts with the conditional statement "if one cares about suffering", so my comments above aren't really a critique. A more direct critique would be "who really cares about suffering?". If we only care about signaling altruism then I think we should just come out and say that.
I like animals and have owned many pets, but I do not care about the suffering of animals far outside my personal experience. If I was surrounded by people who cared about such things then I likely would learn to as well; to do otherwise would signal barbarism. I might also learn to care if I was interested in signaling moral superiority over my peers.
That's, um, not a general rationalist belief.
Sometimes, pleas for altruism are exactly what they seem. Not everything is a covert attempt at signaling. Trying to say that altruism is not serving self-interested reasons is kind of missing the point.
Remember the evolutionary-cognitive boundary. "We have evolved behaviors whose function is to signal altruism rather than to genuinely cause altruistic behavior" is not the same thing as "we act kind-of-altruistically because consciously or unconsciously expect it to signal favorable things about us".
If you realize that evolution has programmed you to do something for some purpose, then embracing that evolutionary goal is certainly one possibility. But you can also decide that you genuinely care about some other purpose, and use the knowledge about yourself to figure out how to put yourself in situations which promote the kind of purpose that you prefer. Maybe I know that status benefits cause me to more reliably take altruistic action than rational calculation about altruism does, so I seek to put myself in communities where rationally calculating the most altruistic course of action and then taking that action is high status. And I also try to make this more high status in general, so that even people who genuinely only care about the status benefits end up taking altruistic actions.
Note that choosing to embrace most kinds of selfishness is no less arbitrary and going against evolution's goals than choosing to embrace altruism. What evolution really cares about is inclusive fitness: if you're going by the "oh, this is what evolution really intended you to do" route, then for the sake of consistency you should say "oh, evolution really intended us to have lots of surviving offspring, so I should ensure that I make regular egg/sperm donations and also get as many women as possible pregnant / spend as much time as possible being pregnant myself".
Most people don't actually want that, no matter what evolution designed us to do. So they rather choose to act selfishly, or altruistically, or some mixture of the two, or in some way that doesn't really map to the selfish/altruistic axis at all, and if that seems to go beyond the original evolutionary purposes of the cognitive modules which are pushing us in whatever direction we do end up caring about, then so what?
And of course, talking about the "purpose" or "intention" of evolution in the first place is anthropomorphism. Evolution doesn't actually care about anything, and claims like "we don't really care about altruism" are only shorthand for "we come equipped with cognitive modules which, when put in certain situations, push us to act in particular ways which - according to one kind of analysis - do not reliably correlate with the achievement of altruistic acts while more reliably correlating with achieving status; when put in different situations, the analysis may come out differently". That's a purely empirical fact about yourself, not one which says anything about what you should care about.
Thank you for the explanation. I was trying to play the devil's advocate a bit and I didn't think my comment would be well-received. I'm glad to have gotten a thoughtful reply.
Thinking about it some more, I was not meaning to anthropomorphize evolution, just point out homo-hypocritus. On any particular value of a person's, we have:
I feel bad about a lot of suffering (mostly that closest to me, of course). However its not clear to me that what I feel is any more "me" than what I do or what I say.
Most everyone (except psychopaths) feels bad about suffering, and tells their friends the same, but they don't do much about it unless its close to their personal experience. Evolution programmed us to be hypocritical. However in this context its not clear to me why we'd chose to act on our feelings instead of feel like our actions (stop caring about distant non-cute animals), or why we'd chose to stop being hypocritical at all. We have lots of examples throughout history of large groups of people ceasing to care about suffering of certain groups, often due to social pressures. I think the tide can swing both ways here.
So I have trouble seeing how these movements would work without social pressures and appeals to self-interest. I guess there's already a lot of pro-altruism social pressure on LW?
Edit: as a personal example, I feel more altruistic than I act, and act more altruistic than I let on to others. I do this because I've only gotten disutility from being seen as a nice guy, and have refrained from a lot of overt altruism because of this. I think I'd need a change in micro-culture to change my behavior here; appeals to logic aren't going to sway me.
I've been eating less meat lately for a reason that has nothing directly to do with animal suffering. Rather I have been experimenting with a lifestyle of nutrient powders, aka DIY Soylent, to substitute for meals. The recipe I settled on happened to be vegan, since it uses soy powder as the main protein source. One could substitute whey (the main Soylent is whey based) or meat based protein, however I am thus far happy with the taste and effects of the soy version.
Anyway, I don't know how widely this practice is likely to spread. It makes remarkable sense to me, and people like me, but perhaps not to the majority. I am attracted to novelty to an above-average degree, and not particularly attached to eating (as long as I can be full/satisfied). The idea that humans can live (not just live, but thrive) on a bit of powder, oil, and water, is somehow fascinating and thrilling -- more so than the idea of surviving on lettuce and veggie burgers, which sounds like more of a boring halfway solution. The reports of less sleep / more energy / better cognition (which seem true to my experience so far) also caught my attention -- perhaps for the same reasons that transhumanism seems like a good idea.
So maybe when advertising veganism to transhumanists specifically, Soylent / quantified self / powder based diet is a good pitch. Market it as "cyborg food" or something. Yes, animals suffering is bad, we get that... But if we focus on animals suffering, what happens? Lab research gets subjected to a bunch of new regs that slow things down, while the food factories in their arrogance keep cranking away and making us look like idiots. The economics are strongly in favor of the meat industry continuing for as long as people remain attached to their meat products, ensuring that they are the last to go despite doing more harm and less good than labs. And as a transhumanist, I really want the labs to succeed -- at least on the important life extension related stuff.
This seems rather a separate issue, especially since you admit that your choice of "cyborg food" only happened to be vegan. You're an accidental vegan. Next week, you might discover that a powder made from lamb faces had more bio-available iron, and that'd be the end of that.
Unrelated: The Accidental Vegan also sounds like the most boring movie imaginable.
Incidental: I don't care unusually much about evangelizing vegetarianism, but I happen to like to talk about food and most of what I know about it is vegetarianism-specialized, so if people are curious about practicalities I am happy to answer questions about what vegetarians eat and how it can be yummy.
I'm interested! I became a vegetarian about 4 months ago, shortly after I started doing my own cooking. My abilities are basically limited to pasta, salads, mushrooms in sandwiches or tortilla wraps, and lots more pasta. To learn recipes, Youtube videos were my main sources. I just haven't gotten around to searching for vegetarian specific foods. What are some more options out there?
I recommend getting familiar with chickpeas and tofu. They are both very cheap, very filling, and very nutritious (chickpeas in particular, once you learn how to reconstitute the dried ones). Experimenting with recipes that involve those ingredients is definitely a good idea. Learning to cook quinoa and rice is another helpful skill (wild rice is also nutritious and filling, and quinoa offers a complete protein). Working with those four ingredients and mixing in other vegetables, spices, mushrooms, sauces, etc will offer a very wide range of delicious and nutritious foods that you can make as a baseline.
You can also look into the dishes of different cultures that have vegetarian traditions. For example, Indian food has a very large range of interesting vegetarian dishes. So does Taiwan, and other strongly Buddhist-influenced cultures. In Japan, Buddhism-inspired vegetarian food is referred to as "Shojin-ryouri", so if you like Japanese food, you might look up some shojin recipes. Those are just some examples =)
Tofu is a good choice, and can be used in many ways. One secret to tofu is to pay attention to the amount of water in the tofu, as that seriously changes the way it tastes, feels, and acts in dishes. For example, when you are making a stew with tofu, such as the spicy and delicious Korean soup kimchi jiggae, you probably want to choose silken tofu, which is soft and will interact well with the rich broth. But if you are making something like McFoo, a tofu sandwich where you marinate the tofu in select spices until it tastes like junk food, then you want a firm and chewy tofu. You can achieve the latter by pressing your tofu for an hour (there are special things to do this, but a towel, cutting boards, and a brick does just fine). You can make it even firmer and more textured by freezing it first, so most of my tofu goes right into the freezer until I need it.
There are also a few veg-specific things that you almost certainly have never had, such as TVP: textured vegetable protein. Despite the unappetizing sci-fi name, it's actually an amazing thing to include in your diet. The trick to learning to love and use it is not to make the sad mistake of just pretending it's meat. Most fake meat things don't taste anything like meat, but instead have a rank and lingering chemical taste and overwhelming profile of salt and sugar, as they try to mimic what you might have liked about meat. TVP and other decent meat substitutes are different, and they just taste good without trying to taste like meat. So TVP chili is hearty and rich and has a great mouthfeel, giving you that chewiness and resistance that's part of what makes meat good, but it doesn't try to ape meat.
Other things you can make: veggie shepherd's pie (lentils and veggies for the filling), pumpkin mac and cheese (add shredded pumpkin when making mac and cheese; if you use a sharp cheese the tastes blend amazingly), filo-wrapped spinach and veggies (you can buy prepared filo dough), loaded baked potatoes, pizza, calzones, quiches, grilled cheese and chard sandwiches, and lots of variations on curries and stews and things.
Not to knock pasta (and I recommend my signature sauce, as well as putting artichokes through the blender and adding them to cream sauces for pasta), but I'm more of a soup fan. Bean soup, veggie soup (here's one way to do veggie soup), eggdrop soup, chowder (clam if you eat seafood, broccoli or corn if you don't), polenta leaf soup, miso soup.
There's also more things you can put in sandwiches besides mushrooms. I like Tofurkey, but even if you don't, here are things I put on bread (all of these things include cheese, but you could omit it if you aren't a huge fan of cheese):
In most of the above cases I make the sandwiches open-faced, and fry them in butter to crisp them up (the last I put in the toaster oven with olive oil, and add the basil and mozzarella after they come out toasty).
Many veggies are lovely roasted. For pretty much all of them, you cut them into bites, put them on an oil-spritzed baking pan, and put them in a 400º oven for twenty minutes. This works for several kinds of squash, asparagus, broccoli, potatoes, etc. You can eat roasted veggies by themselves, or put them in omelets or your pasta or whatever.
I go on Foodgawker for inspiration. For advanced food-related fun, learn to deep fry things - I use my wok and spider skimmer, I don't usually bother with a thermometer and just flick little bits of whatever I'm cooking to see how it reacts, and then I filter the oil for reuse with paper towels and a funnel.
Do you eat eggs and dairy?
If you do not, then question: what is the best non-eggs/dairy solution to desserts? That is, what would you substitute in e.g. pastry cream, whipped cream, meringue, cakes, pastry dough, etc.? Is there some general solution, or is it handled on a case-by-case basis?
(If you do eat eggs/dairy, disregard this question.)
I am not Alicorn, but I also like talking about delicious food and I do not eat eggs and dairy. Unfortunately, there is no general solution to the egg/dairy substitution problem, especially for the eggs end of it.
There are some things I just don't try to adapt: meringue, pastry cream, and whipped cream fall more-or-less into this category. I have had delicious dairy-free versions of whipped cream that seem to have been based on the fatty part of coconut milk, but I haven't made any myself.
There are some substitutions that are easy and consistent. In baking cakes, cookies, and similar things, you can usually use any unsweetened soy or nut milk 1:1 for milk, and use margarine in place of butter, or mild flavored vegetable oil in place of melted butter. It is easiest to get good results if your recipe is for spice or chocolate cake, or is otherwise meant to taste like something other than butter, as even the best non-dairy butter substitutes do not taste quite like the real thing. Eggs are a slightly harder thing to substitute for, so for a really easy experience, go for a recipe that does not use them; sometimes these are "light" cakes or recipes written when food was expensive or rationed.
Eggs, even in baking where they are non-obvious in the final product, can be tricky to substitute for because they do so many things. If the eggs are mainly adjusting the consistency of the batter or dough, you can substitute for 1 egg with 1/4 cup of soft silken tofu , applesauce, or soy yogurt, or anything of a similar texture that you think would taste good. If I expect the egg to actually do some work on helping the rising process, I use 1/4 cup of the liquid from the recipe or of soy milk, plus 1 Tbsp ground flaxseed or 1 tsp ground psyllium husk. If there are more than 1 or 2 eggs called for, I re-evaluate whether I want to use this recipe (things that are supposed to get flavor from eggs, or that use eggs in complicated ways, like with yolks and whites separated, are beyond my skill level to adapt), and if I still want to, I use some combination of the substitutions available to me, to avoid the food tasting heavily of flax or applesauce when I didn't intend that.
The last category you mention is basically "eggs used as an emulsifier" - so other emulsifiers should also work.
Thank you for your response!
I was, in fact, largely thinking of recipes where the butter, eggs, cream, etc. are doing a lot of the flavor and texture work. It sounds like that's something that is lost in an eggs/dairy free diet. This is valuable information.
Next question: would you be able to recommend a good source of dessert recipes that make the most of veg*an limitations on ingredients (rather than attempting to imperfectly substitute for eggs/dairy/etc.)?
(My motivation for these questions, by the way, is that I regularly bake desserts for my friends, and I'd like to be able to make sure that any people of my acquaintance who have veg*an dietary limitations don't feel left out.)
There seem to be a lot of vegan dessert cookbooks out there these days, but of course they are of varying quality. My personal favorites are by Isa Chandra Moskowitz; the link goes to the Desserts category of her blog, so you can see if you like her style.
One really specific recipe that I found surprising, in terms of successfully replacing a food that depends heavily on dairy, is this chocolate mousse. The other creamy food it is easy to successfully replace milk in is pudding; a blancmange (aka Jello cook'n'serve) will work fine with soymilk or with a thick enough nut milk. (Rice milk in particular is thin enough that you have to adjust the ratios or cooking time to get it to set properly.)
Thanks for the links, I will check them out!
Glancing quickly at the chocolate mousse recipe, something occurred to me: how do you deal with vegan ingredients being more expensive than non-vegan ones? For instance, vegan chocolate is way pricier around here than regular chocolate. Maple syrup is VERY expensive (is imitation syrup vegan?).
I do eat eggs and dairy - and lots of 'em - but I have a really good vegan chocolate cake recipe which I will paste below. Churros are also vegan and delicious, and they're not really hard to make if you know how to deep-fry. Direct substitution for dairy ingredients is mostly disappointing, although coconut products can do some neat things and coconut oil often substitutes straight across with butter.
1 1/2 c flour
1 tsp baking soda
1 c sugar
1/4 c cocoa or carob powder
1/2 tsp salt
1 tablespoon white vinegar
1 tsp vanilla
1/3 c canola oil
1 c water
Preheat oven to 350º. Mix the dry ingredients in an 8" square pan. Add the wet ingredients and stir well, making sure the edges and corners of the pan are not omitted. When the batter is smooth and incorporated, bake for 30 minutes or until a toothpick inserted in the center comes out clean.
What vegetarian things can I eat that won't leave me hungry an hour later?
I don't have this problem with most any food so I'm not sure what exactly might cause it, but if you find that you have this problem with vegetarian food and not with meat, I'd try heavy stuff like cheese omelets, preferred unmeats with nice sauces on them, maybe bean stew.
I don't find that this is ever a problem for me. YMMV, but I'd suggest eating calorie-dense foods such as nuts, beans, grains, and fatty foods.
This LiveStrong article has a sample meal plan:
Obtaining optimal health is an unsolved problem. With optimal health, a human will live longer. This human weights probably sentient life as worth more than probably non-sentient life. According to this human's values, the amount of probably non-sentient life this human must consume in order to obtain optimal health does not justify consumption in and of itself. As a human will live longer with optimal health, this human also has more time they can devote to offsetting their consumption, in the end making their human life worth more in net than the cumulative probably non-sentient lives consumed in sustaining optimal health.
The more resources required optimal health, the greater the burden on the human to offset the negative externalities produced utilising those resources.
If optimal health requires strict consumption of only sea-vegetables and coconut oil, one must offset the resources required their sustainable, scalable harvesting. If optimal health requires eating meat procured from animals eating only their native food sources in their native habitat, killed while their hunter whispers sweet nothings and severs their vertebrae at the nape with a swift, sure, and gentle strike, one must offset the costs required making the operation sustainable, scalable, and global warming-friendly - perhaps by inventing meat-vats, solving global warming, or discovering a means of feasible space colonisation.
I'm confused about what you're saying.
If what I think you're saying is what you're saying, then I disagree with you that either (1) nonhuman animals are probably non-sentient or (2) sentience shouldn't matter, depending on what you meant by "sentient".
I also think that vegetarianism cannot provide optimal health (but so can a diet that involves meat, as can veganism).
For item 1, that's fine.
I'm only presenting an argument from the perspective of one who wants to live well and longer, but also wishes to leave a positive impact upon the world; my goal was to raise concerns someone from this mindset would like to see addressed, but ended up arguing (perhaps repugnantly) in favour of the mindset instead.
Let me know if that doesn't help clear confusion.
Probably non-sentient lives are not limited to non-human animals, but marine and plant life, as well as human animals in extreme interpretations.
For item 2, sentience means self-awareness, and refers to the distinction between, for example, depression caused by mere neuro-adaptation of neurotransmitter signalling to external stimuli, and a depressive state furthered by the ability to reflect upon one's depressive situation - internal stimuli.
You might have a typo in the latter-most statement.
I'm sorry, I'm still confused.
1.) Do you think nonhuman animals can suffer? If not, why not?
2.) If yes to #1, do you think that suffering is something you might care about? If not, why not?
1) The question is whether they can experience the subjective realisation of, "Because of this situation, I am experiencing negative emotions. I dislike this situation, but there is no escape," and thus increase their suffering by adding negative internal stimuli - appreciation and awareness of their existence - to already existing negative external stimuli. This is a stricter condition some may have for caring about other creatures to an inconvenient degree. For a fictional example, Methods!Harry refused to eat anything when he considered the possibility that all other life is sentient. To be charitable, assume he is aware that pinching a rabbit's leg will trigger afferent nociceptive (pain) neurons, which will carry a signal to the brain, leading to the experience of pain. Your cited research demonstrates this. It does not demonstrate, however, whether the subject has the awareness to reflect upon the factors that contribute to their suffering, such that their reflection can contribute it by further adding negative stimuli, negative stimuli that is generated only by that organism's selfsame reflection. Causing misery to a probably non-sentient creature did not give Methods!Harry hesitation, but causing misery to a probably sentient creature did; hopefully this helps elucidate the mindset of one ascribing to this stricter condition of care.
2) If a human considers that they themselves satisfy the above condition, then they will be more inclined to attribute more worth to fellow humans than other creatures of a dubious status. That said, they will still realise that misery is not a pleasant experience regardless of one's capacity for self-reflection, and should be prevented and stopped if possible. One must thus argue to this person that it should behove their moral selves to exert effort towards mitigating or decreasing that misery, and that the exertion will not detriment this person's endeavours to reduce the misery of humans.
This person cares more about optimising the good they can achieve while living, which leads them to take pains to live longer; the longer they live, the more good they can achieve. One must convince this person that either non-human animals have the capacity for self-reflection to the degree specified above, or that caring about the misery of non-human animals and acting upon that care does not adversely affect their net ability to introduce good to the world; id est, in the latter condition, acting upon that care must not adversely affect this person's lifespan, quality of life, capacity to help humans, or must only do so by small enough margin to justify the sacrifice.
These are things I think a rational agent making a comfortable salary should think about, assuming they desire to optimise the quantity of good they effect in the world. To someone whose objective is convincing the masses to do the most good they possibly can, this doesn't matter, as arguing for both vegetarianism and giving substantial sums to the AMF only have a potential conflict of interest to the party seeking optimal quality of life and greatest possible life-span.
Consider the two groups of animals.
Group A consists of factory farmed animals which suffer a total of X units of pain in their lives. Group B consists of animals in the wild that also suffer a total of X units of pain in their lives*
We could try to reduce suffering by preventing Group A's existence (your suggestion), or we could try to reduce suffering by preventing Group B's existence. Ignoring convenience why should we choose your option?
*I used the groups so as to address the fact that the individual animals may suffer different amounts.
Why not choose both as long as this doesn't lead to unwanted side-effects? It gets interesting when the two are mutually exclusive. If it turns out that eating more meat reduces the amount of wild animals that are suffering, then that would imo be the best argument against vegetarianism. It is hard to estimate what the effects of global warming will be on wild animal populations though. And even if the argument goes through, I think the biggest benefit from raising the issue of vegetarianism comes from promoting concern for the interests/suffering of nonhumans. To the extent that current memes determine the trajectory of the far future, this would dominate over the direct impact of personal consumption.
Exactly my question. Why the concern over group A and almost no concern over group B?
Lots of people care about the suffering of wild animals. The facebook group "reducing wild animal suffering" currently has 500+ members and many are part of the rationalist community.
Thank you, this is news to me. The page is fairly non-descript though, do you know what sorts of measures they are taking to reduce animal suffering in the wild? Most of what I saw was actually only addressing human caused animal suffering.
The general consensus is that at this stage, it's most important to raise awareness about wild animal suffering so future generations are likely to do something about the issue. This is done by spreading anti-speciesism and by countering the view that whatever is natural is somehow good or that nature "has a plan". It seems especially important to try to change the paradigm in ecology and conservation biology in order to focus more attention on the largest source of suffering on the planet. Some altruists also focus on this issue because of concerns about space colonisation, for instance, future humans might want to colonise the universe with Darwinian life or do ancestor simulations, which would be very bad from an anti-speciesist point of view.
Some imagined long-term solutions for the problem of wild animal suffering range from a welfare state for elephants to reprogramming predators to reducing biomass, but right now people are mainly trying to raise awareness for more intuitive interventions such as vaccinating wild animals against diseases (which is already done in some cases for the benefit of humans), not reintroducing predators to regions for human aesthetic reasons, and helping individual animals in distress as opposed to obeying the common anti-interventionist policies in wildlife parks.
The reason is Group A seems more feasible to change at the moment. Though I am deeply interested in considerations of wild animal suffering as well. I don't see why you need to focus on one or the other.
Also, Group A at least has a clear action to take -- eating less meat. Group B does not have a clear action.
I specified ignoring convenience. Is the lack of a clear action for Group B your true rejection? Would you actually try to minimize suffering in wild animals if you knew how to?
I would definitely try to minimize suffering in wild animals if I knew how to. Would you?
And why would you ignore convenience?
I'm interested in the intrinsic value of reducing suffering, which is why I posed the question. I wanted to know if you thought that the suffering of animals raised by humans is worse than the suffering of wild animals, all else being equal.
If you truly do care about the suffering of wild animals then I appreciate your consistency. I am not particularly bothered by fish getting eaten by sharks or zebras getting eaten by lions. I'm curious though, if you had sufficient resources, would you attempt to convert carnivorous animals to herbivores as well?
Yes. Predation seems quite painful. Wouldn't you agree?
This doesn't directly address your question, but I think it's relevant nonetheless. Here is an excellent article in The New York Times about reducing predation.
I don't quite understand in which meaning is the word "save" used here.
It seems to me that an equivalent statement would be "After a short period of adjustment, you being a vegetarian would result in 26 land animals not existing any more (as in, not being born)".
In the ultimate case of everyone becoming a full vegetarian, domestic animals raised for meat would become endangered species in danger of extinction. I don't think it counts as "saving".
I think Peter is concerned about individual animals and not about the abstract/semantic fence we draw about some of them, labelling it their "species". But you're right to point out that the word "save" is used in a very unusual way. If we're talking about factory farmed animals, abstaining from consumption prevents the existence of individual beings that live short and miserable lives with slaughter at the end. Whether we call this "saving" or not, I regard it as something I want to be done more often in the world.
I agree with you on the technicality-it's a weird use of the word "save". Philosophically I agree with the original poster. As an individual who can suffer, I would prefer to not exist (edit: not have existed in the first place) than to live my life in a factory farm.
Are you willing to make that choice for others?
If you see a creature living in a factory farm and have an opportunity to save it from the rest of its existence, will you kill it?
Whoa. I didn't say that if I was living in factory farm, I would prefer to be killed. I might, and I might seek suicide, but that's a hard choice, because the will-to-live-above-all-else exists and is quite strong (for good evolutionary reasons). Also, approaching death is scary = suffering. So no, I wouldn't make that choice for another person, if I couldn't communicate with them and ask. If I could ask them, I'm not sure.
(This is a situation I've imagined myself in, i.e. if I have a patient someday who is able to convince me that they have made a rational decision that they want to commit assisted suicide. I can't model myself well enough to know what I'd do in that situation either.)
An individual that doesn't exist in the first place, i.e. because of better birth control or because fewer animals are farmed for food, doesn't exist to have to make a choice; at least that's how I see it. I could conceive of people thinking they're philosophically the same situation, but I strongly think that they aren't.
To quote you to you, "I would prefer to not exist than to live my life in a factory farm."
That's a pretty unambiguous statement. Maybe you want to modify it?
EDIT: Ah, I see you modified it. But that's not really a choice: the past is fixed. It's only an expression of a wish that the past were different. And, of course, it it were realized there would be no you to make the choice...
I went back and edited it. I personally thought it was ambiguous tending in the direction of not exist=never have existed in the first place, as opposed to 'stop existing'. Illusion of transparency, etc.
"Save" as in "saved" from a life of suffering.
Idea: if you're very interested in promoting veganism or vegitarianism, help make it taste better, or invest in or donate to those who are helping make it taste better. As my other much-downvoted comment showed, I am very skeptical that appeals to altruism will have nearly as much of an affect as appeals to self-interest, especially outside of this community. I believe most people eat meat because it just tastes better than their alternatives.
Grown crops are far more efficient to produce than livestock, so there are plenty of other good reasons to transition away from the use of livestock in agriculture. If steak were made to "grow on trees", why pay all that extra for the real thing? If you lower the cost of vegetarianism by improving taste, more people will adopt it. If they don't adopt it they'll still be more likely to forgo meats for vegetarian dishes if those dishes taste better.
In the case of low-quality meats (e.g. McDonalds) the taste bar isn't even set very high.
I think your sample size might have lead you astray here. My personal experience is exactly the opposite. That said, I looked for studies of meat vs. faux meat taste and didn't find anything. I wonder if a love of meat over alternatives is innate or is learned, and if there exist vegetarian recipes which really do taste as good as the real thing.
It varies a lot by brand. The food columnist for the New York Times couldn't tell that Beyond Meat wasn't chicken, for example.
Good article, thanks. The author does say the taste was quite different from chicken, you just can't tell when its in a burrito as the chicken is mostly used for texture. The producer's website is here.
Another idea, with potentially better returns than the above: invest in faux-meat producers. There appear to be plenty of them.
I agree that this is potentially a high-impact avenue. New harvest is a charity which sponsors meat substitutes, both plant based and tissue engineered, if you are interested.
Well, as a meat-eater I've got to admit that meat substitutes have come a long way in the last few years. A couple days ago I ended up eating vegan burgers which would have passed muster as mediocre cow, and vegetarian sausage tends to be fairly acceptable as well. I can't say the same for anything made from chunks too big to stir-fry, though, and I've never eaten any vegetarian products passing as rare meat, which I tend to prefer.
Thank you for writing this. For future reference, I am much more convinced by arguments that animals suffer in a way that is similar to how humans suffer (e.g. in a way that, if I saw it, would activate the same neurons in my head that activate when I see a human suffer) than by arguments that animals suffer in some more abstract sense, and I expect that I'm not alone in this preference.
I'm not clear as to what would count as evidence toward satisfying your preference. Do you need fMRI scans of animals? Those probably exist.
Nonhuman animals react in very analogous ways to analogous painful stimuli.
Something like that would help. I would also say "videos of animals suffering," but I anticipate already reacting negatively to those in a way that is similar to how I would react negatively to videos of humans suffering, so that's probably unnecessary.
These might be relevant citations:
"CNS animal fMRI in pain and analgesia."
"fMRI of pain processing in the brain: a within-animal comparative study of BOLD vs. CBV and noxious electrical vs. noxious mechanical stimulation in rat."
"Pain fMRI response in anesthetized rats correlates with behavioral response to pain in awake rats "
["New animal model for objective pain research: noninvasive functional imaging in anesthetized animals by BOLD fMRI to study initial processes of chronic pain
This appears to be an argument for buying ethically raised meats instead of factory farmed meats, not an argument for never eating meat.