Jabberslythe comments on Arguments Against Speciesism - LessWrong

28 Post author: Lukas_Gloor 28 July 2013 06:24PM

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Comment author: jkaufman 28 July 2013 08:30:16PM *  19 points [-]

Some might be willing to bite the bullet at this point, trusting some strongly held ethical principle of theirs (e.g. A, B, C, D, or E above), to the conclusion of excluding humans who lack certain cognitive capacities from moral concern. One could point out that people's empathy and indirect considerations about human rights, societal stability and so on, will ensure that this "loophole" in such an ethical view almost certainly remains without consequences for beings with human DNA. It is a convenient Schelling point after all to care about all humans (or at least all humans outside their mother's womb).

This is pretty much my view. You dismiss it as unacceptable and absurd, but I would be interested in more detail on why you think that.

a society in which some babies were (factory-)farmed would be totally fine as long as the people are okay with it

This definitely hits the absurdity heuristic, but I think it is fine. The problem with the Babyeaters in Three Worlds Collide is not that they eat their young but that "the alien children, though their bodies were tiny, had full-sized brains. They could talk. They protested as they were eaten, in the flickering internal lights that the aliens used to communicate."

If I was told that some evil scientist would first operate on my brain to (temporarily) lower my IQ and cognitive abilities, and then torture me afterwards, it is not like I will be less afraid of the torture or care less about averting it!

I would. Similarly if I were going to undergo torture I would be very glad if my capacity to form long term memories would be temporarily disabled.

(Speciesism has always seemed like a straw-man to me. How could someone with a reductionist worldview think that species classification matters morally? The "why species membership really is an absurd criterion" section is completely reasonable, reasonable enough that I have trouble seeing non-religious arguments against.)

Comment author: Jabberslythe 28 July 2013 08:38:54PM 4 points [-]

I would. Similarly if I were going to undergo torture I would be very glad if my capacity to form long term memories would be temporarily disabled.

Is this because you expect the torture wouldn't be as bad if that happened or because you would care less about yourself in that state? Or a combination?

Similarly if I were going to undergo torture I would be very glad if my capacity to form long term memories would be temporarily disabled.

What if you were killed immediately afterwards, so long term memories wouldn't come into play?

Comment author: jkaufman 28 July 2013 08:48:19PM *  2 points [-]

Is this because you expect the torture wouldn't be as bad if that happened or because you would care less about yourself in that state? Or a combination?

If I had the mental capacity of a chicken it would not be bad to torture me, both because I wouldn't matter morally. I also wouldn't be "me" anymore in any meaningful sense.

What if you were killed immediately afterwards

If you offered me the choice between:

A) 50% chance you are tortured and then released, 50% chance you are killed immediately

B) 50% chance you are tortured and then killed, 50% chance you are released immediately

I would strongly prefer B. Is that what you're asking?

Comment author: Jabberslythe 28 July 2013 09:04:24PM 0 points [-]

If I had the mental capacity of a chicken it would not be bad to torture me, both because I wouldn't matter morally. I also wouldn't be "me" anymore in any meaningful sense.

If not morally, do the two situations not seem equivalent in terms of your non-moral preference for either? In other words, would you prefer one over the other in purely self interested terms?

I would strongly prefer B. Is that what you're asking?

I was just making the point that if your only reason for thinking that it would be worse for you to be tortured now was that you would suffer more overall through long term memories we could just stipulate that you would be killed after in both situations so long term memories wouldn't be a factor.

Comment author: jkaufman 28 July 2013 09:09:16PM 0 points [-]

do the two situations not seem equivalent

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Which two situations?

we could just stipulate that you would be killed after in both situations so long term memories wouldn't be a factor

I see. Makes sense. I was giving long term memory formation an example of a way you could remove part of my self and decrease how much I objected to being tortured, but it's not the only way.

Comment author: Jabberslythe 28 July 2013 09:21:58PM *  1 point [-]

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Which two situations?

A) Being tortured as you are now

B) Having your IQ and cognitive abilities lowered then being tortured.

EDIT:

I am asking because it is useful to consider pure self interest because it seems like a failure of a moral theory if it suggests people act outside of their self interest without some compensating goodness. If I want to eat an apple but my moral theory says that shouldn't even though doing so wouldn't harm anyone else, that seems like a point against that moral theory.

I see. Makes sense. I was giving long term memory formation an example of a way you could remove part of my self and decrease how much I objected to being tortured, but it's not the only way.

Different cognitive abilities would matter in some ways for how much suffering is actually experienced but not as much as most people think. There are also situations where it seems like it could increase the amount an animal suffers by. While a chicken is being tortured it would not really be able to hope that the situation will change.

Comment author: jkaufman 29 July 2013 02:26:32AM 0 points [-]

A) Being tortured as you are now B) Having your IQ and cognitive abilities lowered then being tortured.

Strong preference for (B), having my cognitive abilities lowered to the point that there's no longer anyone there to experience the torture.