asd comments on Confused as to usefulness of 'consciousness' as a concept - LessWrong

35 Post author: KnaveOfAllTrades 13 July 2014 11:01AM

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Comment author: RichardKennaway 12 July 2014 08:46:22AM 15 points [-]

It sometimes seems to me that those of us who actually have consciousness are in a minority, and everyone else is a p-zombie. But maybe that's a selection effect, since people who realise that the stars in the sky they were brought up believing in don't really exist will find that surprising enough to say, while everyone else who sees the stars in the night sky wonders what drugs the others have been taking, or invents spectacles.

I experience a certain sense of my own presence. This is what I am talking about, when I say that I am conscious. The idea that there is such an experience, and that this is what we are talking about when we talk about consciousness, appears absent from the article.

Everyone reading this, please take a moment to see whether you have any sensation that you might describe by those words. Some people can't see colours. Some people can't imagine visual scenes. Some people can't taste phenylthiocarbamide. Some people can't wiggle their ears. Maybe some people have no sensation of their own selves. If they don't, maybe this is something that can be learned, like ear-wiggling, and maybe it isn't, like phenylthiocarbamide.

Unlike the experiences reported by some, I do not find that this sensation of my own presence goes away when I stare at it. I do not even get the altered states of it that some others report.

I am also aware that I have no explanation for the existence of the phenomenon. Some philosophers have claimed that the apparent impossibility of an explanation proves that it does not exist, like a student demanding top marks for not having a clue in the exam. But for me, contemplating the seeming impossibility of the matter does not make the actual experience go away.

Here are some ideas about things that might be going on when people report that they have discovered they have no self. Discount this as you wish from typical mind fallacy, or compare it with your own experience, whatever it may be.

If you stare directly at a dim star in the night sky, it vanishes. (Try it.) Nevertheless, the star continues to exist.

If you stare directly at the sun all day, then for a different reason, you will experience disturbances of vision, and soon you will never be able to see it again. Yet it continues to exist, and after-images and blindness are not signs of enlightenment.

The sun appears to circle the Earth. When it was found that the Earth circles the sun, I doubt that anyone concluded that the sun does not exist, merely on the grounds that something we believed about it was false. (However, I would be completely unsurprised to find philosophers arguing about whether the sun that goes round the Earth and the sun that is gone round by the Earth are one thing or two.)

In the 19th century, Auguste Comte wrote that we could never know the constitution of the stars. Was any philosopher of the time so obtuse as to conclude that the stars do not exist?

Comment author: [deleted] 12 July 2014 11:08:02AM *  12 points [-]

I feel like the intensity of conscious experience varies greatly in my personal life. I feel less conscious when I'm doing my routines, when I'm surfing on the internet, when I'm having fun or playing an immersive game, when I'm otherwise in a flow state, or when I'm daydreaming. I feel more conscious when I meditate, when I'm in a self-referencing feedback loop, when I'm focusing on the immediate surroundings, when I'm trying to think about the fundamental nature of reality, when I'm very sad, when something feels painful or really unpleasant, when I feel like someone else is focusing on me, when I'm trying to control my behavior, when I'm trying to control my impulses and when I'm trying to do something that doesn't come naturally.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same conscious experience so I try to describe it in other words. When I'm talking about the intensity of consciousness, I talking about heightened awareness and how the "raw" experience seems more real and time seems to go slower.

Anyway, my point is that if consciousness varies so much in my own life, I think it's reasonable to think it could also vary greatly between people too. This doesn't mean that more conscious people are in any way "better". It's possible to see from my list that aside from few exceptions, this particular form of consciousness is mostly connected with negative experiences. Considering that flow state and routines are less consciousness inducing activities, too much of this kind of consciousness seems to be detrimental to productivity and instrumental rationality. Unless you're an artist or a philosopher.

Comment author: Kawoomba 15 July 2014 05:33:48PM *  4 points [-]

Well, maybe it's not only your consciousness that varies, but also / more so your memory of it.

When you undergo a gastroscopy and get your light dose propofol, it often happens that you'll actually be conscious during the experience, enough so to try to wiggle free, to focus on the people around you. Quite harrowing, really. Luckily, afterwards you won't have a memory of that.

When you consider your past degree of consciousness, you see things through the prism of your memory, which might well act as a Fourier filter-analogue. It's not exactly vital to reliably save to memory minutiae of your routine tasks, or your conscious experience thereof, so it doesn't always happen. Whyever would it?

(Obligatory "lack of consciousness is the mind-killer".)

Comment author: [deleted] 17 July 2014 11:25:13AM *  2 points [-]

That is the kind of argument that is a bit difficult to argue against in any way because you're always going to use your memory to assess the past degree of consciousness, but it also the kind of argument that doesn't by itself explain why your prior should be higher for the claim "consciousness stays at the same level at all times" versus "consciousness varies throughout your daily life". But I agree, that does happen. Your perception of past mental states is also going to be influenced by your bias and what kind of theoretical framework you have in mind.

Maybe you could set up alarms at random intervals and when alarm goes off you write down your perceived level of consciousness? Is this unreliable too? Maybe it's impossible to compare your immediate phenomenal experience to anything, even if it happened a second before because "experience" and "memory of an experience" are always of entirely different kind of substance. Even if you used fMRI scan on a participant who estimated her level of conscious intensity to be "high" and then used that scan to compare people's mental states, that initial estimate had to come from comparing her immediate mental state to her memories of other mental states - and like you said those memories can be unreliable.

So either you trust your memories of phenomenal experience on some level, or you accept that there's no way to study this problem.