= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
Philip_W comments on A discussion of heroic responsibility - LessWrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (215)
This would only be true if the hero has infinite resources, actually able to redo everyone's work. In practice, deciding how your resources should be allocated requires a reasonably accurate estimate of how likely everyone is to do their job well. Swimmer963 shouldn't insist on farming her own wheat for her bread (like she would if she didn't trust the supply chain), not because she doesn't have (heroic) responsibility to make sure she stays alive to help patients, but because that very responsibility means she shouldn't waste her time and effort on unfounded paranoia to the detriment of everyone.
The main thing about heroic responsibility is that you don't say "you should have gotten it right". Instead you can only say "I was wrong to trust you this much": it's your failure, and whether it's a failure of the person you trusted really doesn't matter for the ethics of the thing.
My referent for 'heroic responsibility' was HPMoR, in which Harry doesn't trust anyone to do a competent job - not even someone like McGonagall, whose intelligence, rationality, and good intentions he had firsthand knowledge of on literally their second meeting. I don't know the full context, but unless McGonagall had her brain surgically removed sometime between Chapter 6 and Chapter 75, he could actually tell her everything that he knew that gave him reason to be concerned about the continued good behavior of the bullies in question, and then tell her if those bullies attempted to evade her supervision. And, in the real world, that would be a perfect example of comparative advantage and opportunity cost in action: Harry is a lot better at high-stakes social and magical shenanigans relative to student discipline than McGonagall is, so for her to expend her resources on the latter while he expends his on the former would produce a better overall outcome by simple economics. (Not to mention that Harry should face far worse consequences if he screws up than McGonagall would - even if he has his status as Savior of the Wizarding World to protect him.) (Also, leaving aside whether his plans would actually work.)
I am advocating for people to take the initiative when they can do good without permission. Others in the thread have given good examples of this. But you can't solve all the problems you touch, and you'll drive yourself crazy if you blame yourself every time you "could have" prevented something that no-one should expect you to have. There are no rational limits to heroic responsibility. It is impossible to fulfill the requirements of heroic responsibility. What you need is the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Did we read the same story? Harry has lots of evidence that McGonagall isn't in fact trustworthy and in large-part it's because she doesn't fully accept heroic responsibility and is too willing to uncritically delegate responsibility to others.
I also vaguely remember your point being addressed in HPMoR. I certainly wouldn't guess that Harry wouldn't understand that "there are no rational limits to heroic responsibility". It certainly matters for doing the most good as a creature that can't psychologically handle unlimited responsibility.
Full disclosure: I stopped reading HPMoR in the middle of Chapter 53. When I was researching my comment, I looked at the immediate context of the initial definition of "heroic responsibility" and reviewed Harry's rationality test of McGonagall in Chapter 6.
I would have given Harry a three-step plan: inform McGonagall, monitor situation, escalate if not resolved. Based on McGonagall's characterization in the part of the story I read, barring some drastic idiot-balling since I quit, she's willing to take Harry seriously enough to act based on the information he provides; unless the bullies are somehow so devious as to be capable of evading both Harry and McGonagall's surveillance - and note that, with McGonagall taking point, they wouldn't know that they need to hide from Harry - this plan would have a reasonable chance of working with much less effort from Harry (and much less probability of misfiring) than any finger-snapping shenanigans. Not to mention that, if Harry read the situation wrong, this would give him a chance to be set straight. Not to mention that, if McGonagall makes a serious effort to crack down on bullying, the effect is likely to persist for far longer than Harry's term.
On the subject of psychology: really, what made me so emphatic in my denouncing "heroic responsibility" was [edit: my awareness of] the large percentage of adults (~10-18%) subject to anxiety disorders of one kind or another - including me. One of the most difficult problems for such people is how to restrain their instinct to blame themselves - how to avoid blaming themselves for events out of their control. When Harry says, "whatever happens, no matter what, it’s always your fault" to such persons, he is saying, "blame yourself for everything" ... and that makes his suggestion completely useless to guide their behavior.
Your three step plan seems much more effective than Harry's shenannigans and also serves as an excellent example of heroic responsibility. Normal 'responsibility' in that situation is to do nothing or at most take step one.
Heroic responsibility doesn't mean do it yourself through personal power and awesomeness. It means using whatever resources are available to cause the desired thing to occur (unless the cost of doing so is deemed too high relative to the benefit). Institutions, norms and powerful people are valuable resources.
I'm realizing that my attitude towards heroic responsibility is heavily driven by the anxiety-disorder perspective, but telling me that I am responsible for x doesn't tell me that I am allowed to delegate x to someone else, and - especially in contexts like Harry's decision (and Swimmer's decision in the OP) - doesn't tell me whether "those nominally responsible can't do x" or "those nominally responsible don't know that they should do x". Harry's idea of heroic responsibility led him to conflate these states of affairs re: McGonagall, and the point of advice is to make people do better, not to win philosophy arguments.
When I came up with the three-point plan I gave to you, I did not do so by asking, "what would be the best way to stop this bullying?" I did so by asking myself, "if McGonagall is the person best placed to stop bullying, but official school action might only drive bullying underground without stopping it, what should I do?" I asked myself this because subsidiarity includes something that heroic responsibility does not: the idea that some people are more responsible - better placed, better trained, better equipped, etc. - than others for any given problem, and that, unless the primary responsibility-holder cannot do the job, those farther away should give support instead of acting on their own.
(Actually, thinking about localism suggested a modification to my Step 1: brief the prefects on the situation in addition to briefing McGonagall. That said, I don't know if that would be a good idea in this case - again, I stopped reading twenty chapters before.)
I agree with all of this except the part where you say that heroic responsibility does not include this. As wedrifid noted in the grandparent of this comment, heroic responsibility means using the resources available in order to achieve the desired result. In the context of HPMoR, Harry is responding to this remark by Hermione:
Again, as wedrifid noted above, this is step one and only step one. Taking that step alone, however, is not heroic responsibility. I agree that Harry's method of dealing with the situation was far from optimal; however, his general point I agree with completely. Here is his response:
Notice that nowhere in this definition is the notion of running to an authority figure precluded! Harry himself didn't consider it because he's used to occupying the mindset that "adults are useless". But if we ignore what Harry actually did and just look at what he said, I'm not seeing anything here that disagrees with anything you said. Perhaps I'm missing something. If so, could you elaborate?
Neither Hermione nor Harry dispute that they have a responsibility to protect the victims of bullying. There may be people who would have denied that, but none of them are involved in the conversation. What they are arguing over is what their responsibility requires of them, not the existence of a responsibility. In other words, they are arguing over what to do.
Human beings are not perfect Bayesian calculators. When you present a human being with criteria for success, they do not proceed to optimize perfectly over the universe of all possible strategies. The task "write a poem" is less constrained than the task "write an Elizabethan sonnet", and in all likelihood the best poem is not an Elizabethan sonnet, but that doesn't mean that you will get a better poem out of a sixth-grader by asking for any poem than by giving them something to work with. The passage from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance Eliezer Yudkowsy quoted back during the Overcoming Bias days, "Original Seeing", gave an example of this: the student couldn't think of anything to say in a five-hundred word essay about the United States, Bozeman, or the main street of Bozeman, but produced a five-thousand word essay about the front facade of the Opera House. Therefore, when I evaluate "heroic responsibility", I do not evaluate it as a proposition which is either true or false, but as a meme which either produces superior or inferior results - I judge it by instrumental, not epistemic, standards.
Looking at the example in the fanfic and the example in the OP, as a means to inspire superior strategic behavior, it sucks. It tells people to work harder, not smarter. It tells people to fix things, but it doesn't tell them how to fix things - and if you tell a human being (as opposed to a perfect Bayesian calculator) to fix something, it sounds like you're telling them to fix it themselves because that is what it sounds like from a literary perspective. "You've got to get the job done no matter what" is not what the hero says when they want people to vote in the next school board election - it's what the hero says when they want people to run for the school board in the next election, or to protest for fifteen days straight outside the meeting place of the school board to pressure them into changing their behavior, or something else on that level of commitment. And if you want people to make optimal decisions, you need to give them better guidance than that to allocating their resources.
That's the part I'm not getting. All Harry is saying is that you should consider yourself responsible for the actions you take, and that delegating that responsibility to someone else isn't a good idea. Delegating responsibility, however, is not the same as delegating tasks. Delegating a particular task to someone else might well be the correct action in some contexts, but you're not supposed to use that as an excuse to say, "Because I delegated the task of handling this situation to someone else, I am no longer responsible for the outcome of this situation." This advice doesn't tell people how to fix things, true, but that's not the point--it tells people how to get into the right mindset to fix things. In other words, it's not object-level advice; it's meta-level advice, and obviously if you treat it as the former instead of the latter you're going to come to the conclusion that it sucks.
Sometimes, to solve a problem, you have to work harder. Other times, you have to work smarter. Sometimes, you have to do both. "Heroic responsibility" isn't saying anything that contradicts that. In the context of the conversation in HPMoR, I do not agree with either Hermione or Harry; both of them are overlooking a lot of things. But those are object-level considerations. Once you look at the bigger picture--the level on which Harry's advice about heroic responsibility actually applies--I don't think you'll find him saying anything that runs counter to what you're saying. If anything, I'd say he's actually agreeing with you!
Humans are not perfectly rational agents--far from it. System 1 often takes precedence over System 2. Sometimes, to get people going, you need to re-frame the situation in a way that makes both systems "get it". The virtue of "heroic responsibility", i.e. "no matter what happens, you should consider yourself responsible", seems like a good way to get that across.
s/work harder, not smarter/get more work done, not how to get more work done/
Why do you believe this to be true?
Again, you're right about the advice being poor – in the way you mention – but I also think it's great advice if you consider it's target the idea that the consequences are irrelevant if you've done the 'right' thing. If you've done the 'right' thing but the consequences are still bad, then you should probably reconsider what you're doing. When aiming at this target, 'heroic responsibility' is just the additional responsibility of considering whether the 'right' thing to do is really right (i.e. will really work).
...
And now that I'm thinking about this heroic responsibility idea again, I feel a little more strongly how it's a trap – it is. Nothing can save you from potential devastation at the loss of something or someone important to you. Simply shouldering responsibility for everything you care about won't actually help. It's definitely a practical necessity that groups of people carefully divide and delegate important responsibilities. But even that's not enough! Nothing's enough. So we can't and shouldn't be content with the responsibilities we're expected to meet.
I subscribe to the idea that virtue ethics is how humans should generally implement good (ha) consequentialist ethics. But we can't escape the fact that no amount of Virtue is a complete and perfect means of achieving all our desired ends! We're responsible for which virtues we hold as much as we are of learning and practicing them.
You are analyzing "heroic responsibility" as a philosophical construct. I am analyzing it as [an ideological mantra]. Considering the story, there's no reason for Harry to have meant it as the former, given that it is entirely redundant with the pre-existing philosophical construct of consequentialism, and every reason for him to have meant it as the latter, given that it explains why he must act differently than Hermione proposes.
[Note: the phrase "an ideological mantra" appears here because I'm not sure what phrase should appear here. Let me know if what I mean requires elaboration.]
Surprisingly, so is mine, yet we've arrived at entirely different philosophical conclusions. Perfectionistic, intelligent idealist with visceral aversions to injustice walk a fine line when it comes to managing anxiety and the potential for either burn out or helpless existential dispair. To remain sane and effectively harness my passion and energy I had to learn a few critical lessons:
'Hermione' style 'responsibility' would be a recipe for insanity if I chose to keep it. I had to abandon it at about the same age she is in the story. It is based on premises that just don't hold in this universe.
'Responsibility' of the kind you can tell others they have is almost always fundamentally different in kind to the 'responsibility' word as used in 'heroic responsibility'. It's a difference that results in frequent accidental equivocation and accidental miscommunicaiton across inferential distances. This is one rather large problem with 'heroic responsibility' as a jargon term. Those who have something to learn about the concept are unlikely to because 'responsibility' comes riddled with normative social power connotations.
That's technically true. Heroic responsibility is completely orthogonal to either of those concerns.
Expected value maximisation isn't for everyone. Without supplementing it with an awfully well developed epistemology people will sometimes be worse off than with just following whichever list of 'shoulds' they have been prescribed.
I may have addressed the bulk of what you're getting at in another comment; the short form of my reply is, "In the cases which 'heroic responsibility' is supposed to address, inaction rarely comes because an individual does not feel responsible, but because they don't know when the system may fail and don't know what to do when it might."
Short form reply: That seems false. Perhaps you have a different notion of precisely what heroic responsibility is supposed to address?
Is the long form also unclear? If so, could you elaborate on why it doesn't make sense?
Your mention of anxiety (disorders) reminds me of Yvain's general point that lots of advice is really terrible for at least some people.
As I read HPMoR (and I've read all of it), a lot of the reason why Harry specifically distrusts the relevant authority figures is that they are routinely surprised by the various horrible events that happen and seem unwilling to accept responsibility for anything they don't already expect. McGonagall definitely improves on this point in the story tho.
In the story, the advice Harry gives Hermione seems appropriate. Your example would be much better for anyone inclined to anxiety about satisfying arbitrary constraints (i.e. being responsible for arbitrary outcomes) – and probably for anyone, period, if for no other reason than it's easier to edit an existing idea than generate an entirely new one.
@wedrifid's correct your plan is better than Harry's in the story, but I think Harry's point – and it's one I agree with – is that even having a plan, and following it, doesn't absolve oneself – and to oneself, if no one else – of coming up with a better plan, or improvising, or delegating some or all of the plan, if that's what's needed to stop kids from being bullied or an evil villain from destroying the world (or whatever).
Another way to consider the conversation in the story is that Hermione initially represents virtue ethics:
Harry counters with a rendition of consequentialist ethics.
If I believed you to be a virtue ethicist, I might say that you must be mindful of your audience when dispensing advice. If I believed you to be a deontologist, I might say that you should tailor your advice to the needs of the listener. Believing you to be a consequentialist, I will say that advice is only good if it produces better outcomes than the alternatives.
Of course, you know this. So why do you argue that Harry's speech about heroic responsibility is good advice?
It seems like you've already answered your own question!
No, I haven't answered my own question. In what way was Harry's monologue about consequentialist ethics superior to telling Hermione why McGonagall couldn't be counted upon?
HPJEV isn't supposed to be a perfect executor of his own advice and statements. I would say that it's not the concept of heroic responsibility is at fault, but his own self-serving reasoning which he applies to justify breaking the rules and doing something cool. In doing so, he fails his heroic responsibility to the over 100 expected people whose lives he might have saved by spending his time more effectively (by doing research which results in an earlier friendly magitech singularity, and buying his warm fuzzies separately by learning the spell for transfiguring a bunch of kittens or something), and HPJEV would feel appropriately bad about his choices if he came to that realisation.
Depending on what you mean by "blame", I would either disagree with this statement, or I would say that heroic responsibility would disapprove of you blaming yourself too. By heroic responsibility, you don't have time to feel sorry for yourself that you failed to prevent something, regardless of how realistically you could have.
Where do you get the idea of "requirements" from? When a shepherd is considered responsible for his flock, is he not responsible for every sheep? And if we learn that wolves will surely eat a dozen over the coming year, does that make him any less responsible for any one of his sheep? IMO no: he should try just as hard to save the third sheep as the fifth, even if that means leaving the third to die when it's wounded so that 4-10 don't get eaten because they would have been traveling more slowly.
It is a basic fact of utilitarianism that you can't score a perfect win. Even discounting the universe which is legitimately out of your control, you will screw up sometimes as point of statistical fact. But that does not make the utilons you could not harvest any less valuable than the ones you could have. Heroic responsibility is the emotional equivalent of this fact.
That sounds wise, but is it actually true? Do you actually need that serenity/acceptance part? To keep it heroically themed, I think you're better off with courage, wisdom, and power.
Yes, I do. Most other humans do, too and it's a sufficiently difficult and easy to neglect skill that it is well worth preserving as 'wisdom'.
Non-human intelligences will not likely have 'serenity' or 'acceptance' but will need some similar form of the generalised trait of not wasting excessive amounts of computational resources exploring parts of solution space that have insufficient probability of significant improvement.
In that case, I'm confused about what serenity/acceptance entails, why you seem to believe heroic responsibility to be incongruent with it, and why it doesn't just fall under "courage" and "wisdom" (as the emotional fortitude to withstand the inevitable imperfection/partial failure and accurate beliefs respectively). Not wasting (computational) resources on efforts with low expected utility is part of your responsibility to maximise utility, and I don't see a reason to have a difference between things I "can't change" and things I might be able to change but which are simply suboptimal.
A human psychological experience and tool that can approximately be described by referring to allocating attention and resources efficiently in the face of some adverse and difficult to influence circumstance.
I don't. I suspect you are confusing me with someone else.
Yes. Yet for some reason merely seeing an equation and believing it must be maximised is an insufficient guide to optimally managing the human machinery we inhabit. We have to learn other things - including things which can be derived from the equation - in detail and and practice them repetitively.
The Virtue of Narrowness may help you. I have different names for "DDR Ram" and "A replacement battery for my Sony Z2 android" even though I can see how they both relate to computers.
Right, I thought you were RobinZ. By the context, it sounds like he does consider serenity incongruous with heroic responsibility:
With my (rhetorical) question, I expressed doubt towards his interpretation of the phrase, not (necessarily) all reasonable interpretations of it.
For me at least, saying something "can't be changed" roughly means modelling something as P(change)=0. This may be fine as a local heuristic when there are significantly larger expected utilities on the line to work with, but without a subject of comparison it seems inappropriate, and I would blame it for certain error modes, like ignoring theories because they have been labeled impossible at some point.
To approach it another way, I would be fine with just adding adjectives to "extremely ridiculously [...] absurdly unfathomably unlikely" to satisfy the requirements of narrowness, rather than just saying something can't be done.
I would call this "level-headedness". By my intuition, serenity is a specific calm emotional state, which is not required to make good decisions, though it may help. My dataset luckily isn't large, but I have been able to get by on "numb" pretty well in the few relevant cases.
I agree. I downvoted RobinZ's comment and ignored it because the confusion about what heroic responsibility means was too fundamental, annoyingly difficult to correct and had incidentally already been argued for far more eloquently elsewhere in the thread. In contrast I fundamentally agree with most of what you have said on this thread so the disagreement on one conclusion regarding a principle of rationality and psychology is more potentially interesting.
I agree with your rejection of the whole paragraph. My objection seems to be directed at the confusion about heroic (and arguably mundane) responsibility rather than the serenity wisdom heuristic.
I can empathize with being uncomfortable with colloquial expressions which deviate from literal meaning. I can also see some value in making a stand against that kind of misuse due to the way such framing can influence our thinking. Overconfident or premature ruling out of possibilities is something humans tend to be biased towards.
Whatever you call it it sounds like you have the necessary heuristics in place to avoid the failure modes the wisdom quote is used to prevent. (Avoiding over-responsibility and avoiding pointless worry loops).
The phrasing "The X to" intuitively brings to my mind a relative state rather than an absolute one. That is, while getting to some Zen endpoint state of inner peace or tranquillity is not needed but there are often times when moving towards that state to a sufficient degree will allow much more effective action. ie. it translates to "whatever minimum amount of acceptance of reality and calmness is needed to allow me correctly account for opportunity costs and decide according to the bigger picture".
That can work. If used too much it sometimes seems to correlate with developing pesky emotional associations (like 'Ugh fields') with related stimulus but that obviously depends on which emotional cognitive processes result in the 'numbness' and soforth.
I would rather you tell me that I am misunderstanding something than downvote silently. My prior probability distribution over reasons for the -1 had "I disagreed with Eliezer Yudkowsky and he has rabid fans" orders of magnitude more likely than "I made a category error reading the fanfic and now we're talking past each other", and a few words from you could have reversed that ratio.
Thankyou for your feedback. I usually ration my explicit disagreement with people on the internet but your replies prompt me to add "RobinZ" to the list of people worth actively engaging with.