An interesting idea in this book was that most people who try to do "behaviorism" are actually doing it wrong (such as delivering the rewards and punishments too late, so they are associated with something else instead). And yet the people who do it wrong will defend their approach as scientifically proved.
As a rule of thumb, if your approach uses a lot of punishment, chances are that you are actually only rewarding yourself (by giving yourself a feeling of high status when you deliver the punishment). Which is the true reason why approaches using punishments are so popular (among the people who use them).
tl;dr -- all you need is love (and clicker)
What about the claims in "Maintaining behavior" that you do need consistent aversives (punishment), but only inconsistent rewards? That seems to say the exact opposite of the earlier stance: it says that you should use lots of punishments (every time the subject gets something wrong), and few rewards.
I'm confused as to what the book actually wants you to do.
One of the chapters deals with getting rid of behaviors you don't want, with eight methods (some of which she doesn't recommend). For example, training an incompatible behavior: if don't want your dog to beg at the table during dinner, train your dog to lie down someplace else during dinner. Or "shape the absence" - reinforce everything that's not the unwanted behavior.
I'm confused as to what the book actually wants you to do.
I recommend reading the book. It is one of the best things I have ever read. A short review or a comment cannot explain everything. (Also, I don't fully remember everything; it was a few years ago.)
First, there is a difference between teaching a behavior, and unteaching a behavior. (Is "unteach" a proper English word?) Second, there is a difference between creating a new habit, and maintaining the existing habit.
On the topic of unteaching, the important thing is that instead of "don't do X" it is often easier to teach an alternative "in situation Z (instead of X) do Y". But if you want to use punishments, the important thing is that they come immediately and consistently. A small punishment that comes always and immediately after the act, works much better than a large punishment that comes only sometimes and several days after the act.
When you start teaching a new habit using rewards, again the important thing is to deliver the reward immediately and consistently... at the beginning. But after the habit is established, you gradually reduce the size and frequency of the rewards. If you stop rewarding suddenly, the animal will give it a few more attempts, and then give up... and maybe occassionally try again, just to see if the rewards have returned. But if you gradually make the rewards rare, the animal will keep doing it, and the occassional reward will be enough to keep the habit. If you deliver the rare rewards regularly (e.g. only once a day, or always once per 100 attempts), the animal will notice the regularity, and after receiving a reward will slow down (because it means that the next reward is far away). But if you deliver the rare rewards unpredictably, the animal will keep trying all the time.
Curated. I found a lot of this to be a good reminder of stuff I had gathered from previous similar articles, but packaged up in a way that feels more useful to me.
Something I'd like to see is a post that considers all of this in the context of adult relationships / employees / teammates, where there's more of a requirement of "treat each other as peers with similar amounts of agency." I think there are some very obvious failure modes to fall into (i.e. yelling at people at dumb times that punish the wrong things), and some obvious good things to try (i.e. noting when people did a good thing).
But then there's a blurry window where I think it's plausible end up treating people as objects to optimize, or giving them the impression that you're treating them that way, and I'd be interested in a post exploring how to navigate that productively.
Thanks for writing this up! Appreciate the personal anecdotes too. Curious if you or Jeff have any tips and tricks for maintaining the patience/discipline required to pull off this kind of parenting (for other readers, I enjoyed some of Jeff's thoughts on predictable parenting here). Intuitively to me, it seems like this is a reason that the value-add from paying for childcare might be higher than you'd think naively — not only do you directly save time, you might also have more emotional reserves to be consistent and disciplined if you get more breaks.
I don't think I have anything much to add in the way of specific tips.
I do think I'm a worse parent when I have less support (when I was home on maternity leave with a newborn and toddler, or when Jeff has been traveling and I've been alone with both kids for longer stretches than usual.) I agree that having childcare available, either paid or any kind, can help you be more patient and in-control.
So, "Don't Shoot the Dog" is a collection of parenting advice based solely on the principle of reinforcement learning, i.e., the idea that kids do things more if they are rewarded and less if they're punished. It gets a lot out of this, including things that many parents do wrong. And the nicest thing is that, because everything is based on such a simple idea, most of the advice is self-evident. Pretty good, considering that learning tips are often controversial.
For example, say you ask your kid to clean her room, but she procrastinates on the task. When she finally does it, it's probably a bad idea to scold her for taking so long since that would primarily discourage the act of cleaning (which you want) rather than the delay (which you don't want) -- because the cleaning is what directly preceded your reaction. Pretty self-evident, right? But it's also something parents do wrong all the time.
The post is good enough to make me feel like I don't have to read the book myself. Since none of the concepts are difficult, this requires nothing fancy; the post just goes through all the advice sequentially and gives a straightforward explanation, usually with a quote from the book. It's super simple, but it works well.
My only complaint is the introduction; I think the post should (a) define behaviorism and (b) tell me why I should care about the book.
Thanks for writing this! As a tangent for your friend: Calibre can turn any e-book (including Kindle books protected by DRM) into audiobooks.
This behavioral training method using positive and negative reinforcement, is something that I would recommend you use with animals and children before they can speak and reason. Our brains do this type of direct training, through our built in pleasure and pain feedback. Once the child is able to talk and reason, then it isn't very effective at all especially with complex choices like not doing drugs with friends when they are away from the parents. You are effectively trying to enforce your ideas and beliefs on to child's and taking away their own autonomy and desire to make their own decisions.
The most effective way to persuade a child about your point of view is (at least my children) to give them the information that is available, and if possible to show then the possible outcomes of their choices, good and bad. Once I arm my children with the appropriate information, then generally make the correct choices, of their own choosing. This is a much more powerful method and will be maintained when they are on their own. If they do not, they are already aware of what the consequences will be, and that is a powerful lesson that they will not forget. The aim is to develop a thinking and considerate person, that can make the correct decisions for their own lives, on their own.
Using behaviorism for teaching myself was very efficient. For example, I suffered from obsessive sexual fantasies, and the only thing that works was imagine sexual scenes and biting my tongue in the same time.
In general, thy to think about what kind of your behavior you reward.
P. S.:Write this comment is hard to me, so I'm eating a sweet yogurt in the same time😎
Cross-posted from The Whole Sky.
I just finished Karen Pryor’s “Don’t Shoot the Dog: the New Art of Teaching and Training.” Partly because a friend points out that it’s not on Audible and therefore she can’t possibly read it, here are the notes I took and some thoughts. It’s a quick, easy read.
The book applies behavioral psychology to training animals and people. The author started off as a dolphin trainer at an aquarium park in the 1960s and moved on to horses, dogs, and her own children. There are a lot of anecdotes about how to train animals (apparently polar bears like raisins). At the time, training animals without violence was considered novel and maybe impossible. I read it as a parenting book since I don’t plan to train dogs, horses, or polar bears.
It’s probably not the best guide to training dogs since a lot of it is about people, and not the best guide to training people since a lot is about animals. She’s written a bunch of other books about training dogs and cats. But this book is an entertaining overview of all of it.
The specter of behaviorism
I can understand not wanting to use behavioral methods on children; the idea can sound overly harsh or reductive. The thing is, we already reinforce behavior all the time, including bad behavior, often without meaning to. So you might as well notice what you’re doing.
(B. F. Skinner in fact believed that punishment was not an effective learning tool, and that positive reinforcement was much better for teaching.)
Pryor argues that behavioral training allows you to get good results more pleasantly than with other methods. She describes her daughter’s experience directing a play in high school:
Of course there are bad applications of behavioral training: “The psychological literature abounds with shaping programs that are so unimaginative, not to say ham-handed, that they constitute in my opinion cruel and unusual punishment.”
I don’t know a lot about ABA (applied behavior analysis), which is one application of behaviorism. My understanding is that its bad applications are certainly cruel and ham-handed, although there also seem to be good applications. I think that even people opposed to ABA should be able to find a lot of useful material in this book.
You’re already doing reinforcement training
One point I think is underappreciated is that we all reinforce each other, and children train parents as well as the other way around.
It’s also easy to accidentally reinforce bad behavior.
I recently read Beverly Cleary’s Beezus and Ramona with the kids, in which a preschooler scribbles in a library book she wants to keep. Her older sister pays for the book, and the librarian gives them back the discarded book to keep.
Jeff and I try to not let bad behavior lead to a reward. For example, our four-year-old was eager to go home from the park, and left without us towards the house. I caught up with her and told her not to leave without us. We were halfway to the house, but If I’d continued home with her from there, she would still have achieved what she wanted: getting home sooner. So I took her back to the park and we redid the whole situation: she said “I want to go home” and I walked home with her. Running off on her own didn’t pay, and she hasn’t repeated it.
Responding to good behavior, not bad
Instead of punishing bad behavior, the emphasis is on noticing and reinforcing good behavior.
My mother, who taught preschool for decades, sums it up as “You have to catch ‘em being good.”
Some animals can’t be trained by force, or at least can’t be trained to do anything very complicated. Such training was necessary with dolphins because they’ll simply swim away if you try to make them do anything they don’t like. You can only train them by offering something they like (fish).
At its best, reinforcement learning is enjoyable for the learner:
Clickers and other sounds
Pryor became known for “clicker training” because she started using the method of using a sound to immediately convey “yes, that’s good.” The particular sound isn’t important as long as the learner can hear and recognize it. With aquatic animals you use whistles because they can be heard underwater; with dogs she uses mechanical clicker noisemakers; with a person I’d probably use a specific phrase but some people also use clickers.
The sound initially has no meaning, but by giving it at the same time as a reward (food, smiles, pats) you create an association between the sound and the reward. Later the sound itself is rewarding.
Pryor describes the program her son (an airplane pilot) designed for pilot training:
Attention
This doesn’t mean you give positive attention only during training.
I think when children point out minor accomplishments — “Look at all the sticks I collected” — it’s more often a request for attention than a situation that requires praise. I’m likely to comment in a way that shows interest — “Yes, you’ve got a lot of sticks there!” — but I don’t see a need to evaluate the quality of their stick pile or whatever. I try to save actual praise for something I especially want them to do more of, or something that was new and challenging for them.
Interested attention during training is necessary, and ignoring someone is a kind of punishment:
Wrong timing
Pryor emphasizes that if you give punishment or reward at the wrong time, you reinforce the wrong behavior. If you call a dog to you and it finally comes, then you strike it, you’ve punished it for returning to you.
My mother always complained of the same tendency in her choral director: when the singers finally got a difficult passage right, instead of praising them he’d shout “Why couldn’t you do it like that the first time?!”
I’ve noticed the importance of timing when a child finally does what you want, because it’s tempting to scold them even after they’ve shaped up. Anna has a wide variety of delay tactics for brushing her teeth, and I find it easy to be stony-faced when she’s capering around instead of coming to the sink. By the time she finally comes to have her teeth brushed I’m feeling annoyed and would like to give her a lecture. But if I give her an unpleasant response just as she’s finally doing what I want, I disincentivize her from doing it. Instead, as soon as she comes to the sink I become pleasant Mama, smiling and joking.
Maintaining behavior
Once a behavior is established, you use intermittent reinforcement to maintain it:
In people, the behavior itself eventually brings its own reward; we praise toddlers for learning to use the potty, but after the behavior is established we no longer need to reinforce it. And having dry clothes is its own reward.
We encountered this in my house when Lily was two. Our housemate would sporadically show her a Sesame Street video on his phone, and she loved this so she’d pester him constantly for it. The reward came unpredictably, so she asked very often. Once he moved to a predictable schedule (one video every day after dinner) she learned the pattern and stopped asking at times of day when she knew it wouldn’t work.
Also affects adult relationships:
Pryor training herself to go to class even when she didn’t feel like it, and then maintaining the behavior without the reward:
Sports players and fans become “trained” to do certain actions (wearing their lucky clothes, etc) because they associate it with the team winning.
Raise expectations gradually, with rewards for incremental progress:
Pryor claims that you have to be much more consistent with aversives (punishments) than with rewards. Seems like that might be right with animals and young children, but adults are usually willing to avoid committing crimes even if they don’t expect to be caught every time.
Learners can go long periods of time without a reward:
When to stop a training session
End a training session while the learner is having success:
Sports training
Pryor notes that in the second part of the 20th century, sports training seems a lot better than when she was young, and has moved toward more effective reinforcement learning:
On patience
Good trainers are disciplined and intentional:
One thing I notice in all this is that it’s self-reinforcing. The method requires a certain amount of patience and self-discipline from the parent. It’s easier to do that when things are already going well, and in turn you’re rewarded with children who are easier to live with. When parents are exhausted and time-pressed, it’s easier to slip into inconsistency, and both parents and children are more prone to outbursts and unpleasantness.
Limits of reinforcement
She ends with some warnings about trying to apply reinforcement to absolutely everything, or assuming it’s the only thing in play:
This isn’t the only tool I’d want in my parenting repertoire. But I do think it’s well worth having.