In response to comment by gjm on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Aiyen 16 October 2014 08:58:28PM 0 points [-]

Jewish miracles aren't evidence against Christianity-the same God is hypothesized to be behind both religions. The others are very interesting though, especially the stupa.

In response to comment by Aiyen on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Aiyen 16 October 2014 09:20:14PM 1 point [-]

Just finished the Quackwatch article. My prior for belief is dropping substantially.

In response to comment by Aiyen on Questions on Theism
Comment author: gjm 15 October 2014 10:47:11PM 0 points [-]

I'm far from being an expert on modern miracle claims, but here are a few examples. Hindu statues drinking milk. Sundry miracles at a Buddhist stupa. Kinda-sorta-semi-miracles from a Jewish rabbi. Kinda-sorta-semi-miracles from a Muslim.

This skeptic's webpage about miraculous healings mentions a few books that give a decent idea of the sort of evaporation I mean. I think I read one of them (the one by William Nolen) years ago; the author looked into a number of cases of alleged miraculous healings, and found that in every case there was no good reason to think anything miraculous had occurred.

And yes, I think your priors for honesty and reliability may be too high. Sorry about that.

In response to comment by gjm on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Aiyen 16 October 2014 08:58:28PM 0 points [-]

Jewish miracles aren't evidence against Christianity-the same God is hypothesized to be behind both religions. The others are very interesting though, especially the stupa.

In response to comment by Aiyen on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Lumifer 15 October 2014 07:53:31PM 1 point [-]

With Pascal's Wager on the table

One major problem with Pascal's Wager (among others) is that it doesn't specify which god. It applies equally to worshiping Yahweh, Kali, and Huitzilopochtli -- and offers no guidance on how to choose between them.

Comment author: Aiyen 16 October 2014 08:35:50PM 1 point [-]

Right, but given a large body of Christian miracle accounts, the only two hypotheses that seem plausible are 1. Christianity is true or 2. Christianity is false, and nevertheless generates an extremely impressive body of miracle claims. Given 1. Pascal's Wager is obviously worth taking, and given 2. I can't see any reason to believe in any God. The Wager only works if there's some other reason to consider the belief to be reasonable, otherwise we'd all end up praying to the Tooth Fairy.

In response to comment by Aiyen on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Toggle 15 October 2014 10:32:23PM 0 points [-]

Chinese Whispers I can believe, but many of the miracle accounts I've heard were written by the eyewitnesses. Maybe my priors for human honesty and reliability are too high?

By some estimates, replicability in scientific cancer research is about 11%. We can reasonably assume that reports of miraculous events have at least as many flaws as laboratory experiments.

In response to comment by Toggle on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Aiyen 16 October 2014 08:27:46PM *  2 points [-]

Okay, that's extremely unexpected. I'm going to need to perform a major update.

In response to comment by Aiyen on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Desrtopa 15 October 2014 03:38:20PM 0 points [-]

Only anecdotal, but it's hard to get good hard data on this because it would require collecting data in so many different languages.

You might be able to get better data by narrowing the field somewhat. For instance, by looking at the comparison in reported miracles between Mormons and conventional Christians (I recall from an earlier discussion on the topic here that Mormons reported a higher rate of answered prayers than any Christian denomination, except possibly devout Pentecostalists depending on how the measurement was taken.)

Comment author: Aiyen 15 October 2014 07:39:54PM 0 points [-]

Interesting. Mormons getting answered prayers wouldn't be too surprising-they aren't conventional Christians, but they're trying to pray to the same God-maybe it works? Getting higher rates of answers is unexpected though.

In response to Questions on Theism
Comment author: Azathoth123 08 October 2014 11:07:04PM *  0 points [-]

commands given by God that seem horrifyingly immoral

Just out of curiosity, what moral system are you using to make this judgement?

Comment author: Aiyen 15 October 2014 07:31:05PM 0 points [-]

It's something of a cop out to say "Common Sense", but I don't feel bad about raising a red flag on things like mandatory circumcision (not Christian, but Jewish, and Christianity claims the same God), genocide on wicked peoples to include infants and livestock (I can buy a culture becoming so corrupt that everyone indoctrinated into it would need to die, but why hurt the babies?), a lot of Mosaic law on sexuality, that kind of thing. I can't rule out that it all makes sense given enough wisdom (which God would presumeably have), but it's got to count as a source of questions.

In response to Questions on Theism
Comment author: MaximumLiberty 08 October 2014 11:07:22PM 1 point [-]

Aiyen:

I think the place I would start -- and did start -- is with the question, "Have I ever personally experienced a miracle?" I quickly discarded most possibilities and came down to just a few, all of which were fundamentally a strong of events, each of which was individually highly unlikely. But unlikely things happen every day, so that's not enough to say it is a miracle.

Next, I would ask if people I personally know and trust have experienced miracles. I'd ask them about their experiences. For me, I knew no one who had experienced anything that sounded like a miracle. Again, there were some unlikely coincidences, but that's not really enough. If one of them claimed to have experienced a true miracle, then I'd keep evaluating their credibility over a long period of time. Does their story change? Reasonable consistency would be more credible. Do they act like I would expect them to act if they had really experienced a miracle? A non-believer suddenly becoming a devout missionary in the absence of any personal crisis would be credible. Do they get anything by claiming to have experienced a miracle? Someone getting attention from conspicuous religiosity is less credible for me, though that doesn't necessarily make sense: if I had personally experienced a miracle, I'd think that I would sell off all my worldly possessions to talk about it as much as possible. Is this yet another in a series of flighty decisions? Going from new age to confused to born-again is not very persuasive for me. And so on.

Finally, given that people have cell phones with cameras now, and given that virtually everything else shows up on YouTube, I would think that there would be at least some credible video. I'd also think that I wouldn't be able to analyze whether it is credible, given the possibility of a good special effects studio. But I bet someone else would and that I would hear about a truly inexplicable video.

Max L.

Comment author: Aiyen 15 October 2014 07:26:08PM 2 points [-]

Have I ever personally experienced a miracle?

I've seen people pray in tongues, felt an overwhelming sense of God's presence, had it reported that my face was glowing during prayer once (I held up a hand to see if I could see any reflected light; no dramatic effect, wasn't sure if I saw the light or the power of suggestion), that sort of thing.

I haven't seen anything super dramatic, but enough to be convinced that either God is real, or human beings are frighteningly good at self-deception.

In response to Questions on Theism
Comment author: gjm 08 October 2014 10:24:09PM 28 points [-]

So, a few observations on miracles.

  1. There are miracle stories in every religious tradition and plenty of not-exactly-religious traditions. Unless there's some big difference in credibility -- which I'm not aware of any reason to think there is -- if you think "no smoke without fire" about one set then you should think the same about the others too. Which means you either have to believe in lots of different gods, or believe in one god and lots of evil spirits (or something) that just happen to do more or less the same sorts of miracle. (Or, I guess, believe that miraculous things happen but they're brought about by people's latent psychic powers or something, but that's pretty far from any religion's account of these things.)

  2. When miraculous stories are investigated carefully, they consistently seem to evaporate. This happens even when the people doing the investigation belong to the religion that claims responsibility for the alleged miracle. For instance, consider something commonly cited as evidence for miracles: the shrine at Lourdes, to which pilgrims in their millions trek in the hope of miraculous healing. The Roman Catholic Church has a process -- to its credit, not a completely ridiculous one -- by which it certifies some healings there as miraculous. Although the process isn't completely ridiculous, it's far from obviously bulletproof; the main requirement is that a bunch of Roman Catholic doctors declare that the alleged cure is inexplicable according to current medical knowledge. As an example, the most recent case is of someone who had a tumour that went away after she bathed at Lourdes. (My understanding is that this is a thing that occasionally happens, miracle or no.) So, anyway, they appear to certify about one miracle per two million pilgrims, and I think pretty much all the pilgrims are there in hope of healing. One per two million! (If you think the alleged cures are so improbable that they couldn't happen naturally one time in two million, I have a bridge to sell you.)

  3. In some situations (those in which a lot of these miraculous healings tend to occur) it really isn't difficult to get people to think more has happened than really has. Consider, for instance, the case of Peter Popoff. Lots of miraculous healings at his meetings -- but the whole thing was a fraud.

  4. In general, unfortunately, people do lie. And make mistakes. And see what they hope or expect to see. And tales "grow in the telling", so that after a few steps of Chinese Whispers something sounds far more inexplicable and impressive than it ever really was.

You might try the following experiment: Talk to some of your Christian friends, and ask them for the most impressive examples they have personally experienced of miraculous interventions by God. If in fact there are no miracles, what you should expect is that (1) the things they cite won't, on the whole, be all that impressive; (2) the more careful and intelligent of them will have less impressive experiences; (3) the most impressive experiences will be the least verifiable.

In response to comment by gjm on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Aiyen 15 October 2014 07:19:28PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the detailed response!

  1. There are miracle stories in many religious traditions, proving that false claims show up in purported scriptures all the time. I haven't heard about a lot of modern accounts of non-Christian miracles though; if you have, could you send me the links? That could be substantial evidence.

  2. Good point. Do you have any details about the "evaporation"? What actually happened in some of these cases, and how they got mistaken for miracles?

  3. Hmm, I'm going to research Peter Popoff now...

  4. Chinese Whispers I can believe, but many of the miracle accounts I've heard were written by the eyewitnesses. Maybe my priors for human honesty and reliability are too high?

In response to Questions on Theism
Comment author: [deleted] 10 October 2014 05:44:20PM 0 points [-]

Good answers have been given by commenters already, so I'll take a second to say: this reminds me strongly of C.S. Lewis' dissertation on miracles. Titled, can you believe it, Miracles.

I don't remember the entire discussion, but his opening expressed an idea of priors similar to what you've outlined here: those who review history looking for miracles will find evidence for them. Those who review history looking for evidence against miracles will find it. His idea was, simplified, "If a miracle occured, a person who does not believe in miracles would accept the evidence as being of an unexplained phenomena that more study will reveal. So, even if I were to raise the dead before your eyes, it would not constitute proof of a miracle to you unless you already accepted the idea that miracles can occur."

I... did not like this thesis. Now, I read this after my own falling out with Christianity, but I still had (and still have) a deep respect for Lewis. But this thesis reminded me very much of the argument made by creationists about how world views determine your interpretation of scientific fact. When laid over the field of paleontology, the idea starts to show its flaws. In geology, if you determine a rock is a million years old, you can't "interpret" that fact to mean it only looks a million but is actually a thousand years old. That's doublethink: the rock "is" a million years old (by looks) but actually "is" (by essence) a thousand. You're saying the evidence suggests two things: what the rock "looks" like (according to the evidence of your senses) and what the rock "is" (according to the evidence of your senses on the matter of religion).

I feel that Lewis' argument on miracles and priors relies on the same sort of difficulty. An event "is" (by looks) a miracle and either "is" (by essence) really or not really a miracle. That tells us nothing. The phenomena is or is not a miracle. Your priors don't matter. If Horus really did return from Hell, my disbelief can do nothing to change that fact. Horus' death and return, as real events, guarantee a world that physically resembles and acts like one where Horus' death and return did happen, not one where they did not happen. So the evidence can only mean one thing, not either depending on my priors.

So, all of this is to say, "miracles" are not different from other phenomena. They are not a special class. You judge a miracle (or report of a miracle) the exact same way you judge a rock. If I walked into my office tomorrow morning and found a large rock had appeared there overnight, I would use the same senses and tools to determine where it had come from as I would if it were the second incarnation of Christ. Neither event has a special set of circumstances regarding how I gather or consider its evidence. I still have to judge the second incarnation of Christ by sight, sound, smell, touch, etc and the evidence I gather is still subject to the same scrutiny and consideration as if it Christ were a rock.

Glad you decided to open up about this difficulty. As one raised Christian (you are obviously among fellows here), I can appreciate the power of Belief. This is not an easy issue to face, however you end up updating your beliefs. Good luck.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Questions on Theism
Comment author: Aiyen 15 October 2014 07:09:05PM 3 points [-]

Isn't Lewis' argument in that case actually standard probability theory? If you hold a prior of 0 for an event, no finite amount of evidence will change your mind. Miracles aren't a special class-everything is judged by both priors and evidence. Lewis wasn't arguing for a separate magisterium or some other case of special pleading, he was saying that there exists enough evidence to convince us miracles have occured unless our prior is 0 or extremely low. The rest of Miracles was devoted to arguing that our prior shouldn't be especially low.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2014 02:48:48AM *  0 points [-]

Yes, psychosis is a useful explanation for miracles only for people whose beliefs won't explain the whole category away. I doubt the op has such beliefs.

Comment author: Aiyen 15 October 2014 07:01:15PM 1 point [-]

No, I don't have any beliefs that would claim that psychosis doesn't exist, don't worry. I can't think of any hypothesis that would claim this without being far more complicated than the conventional "mental illness is a thing" view, and thus being eliminated by Occam's Razor.

View more: Prev | Next