Comment author: ArisKatsaris 15 July 2011 12:14:31PM 8 points [-]

I can likewise imagine (and could prefer) a scientific civilization that is freely polyamorous, atheistic, Eugenicist, etc.

But "brutally unegalitarian and aggressive"? Why in the seven hells would I prefer to live in such a horrid place? Historical precedent indicates that the more unegalitarian the society the most horrid it is for the majority of its people. Aggressiveness is even more likely to lead to a horrible society. My limited personal experience confirms (my one-year military service being the the worst sub-society I've been in).

Perhaps when you imagine such a society you imagine yourself being the boot, not the face it crushes forever? To evaluate it properly you need imagine both, giving weight according to the percentage of the crushers vs the crushees.

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 08:22:23PM 0 points [-]

I can likewise imagine (and could prefer) a scientific civilization that is freely polyamorous, atheistic, Eugenicist, etc.

Scientific civilization that actually understands science of biology would steer clear of eugenics.

For pure pragmatic reasons - breeding better (whatewer value of "better" you choose) humans would last at least several centuries - and the problem is that you do not know what traits would be needed then.

Here is one actual historical example of human breeding. Had Frederick II and other kings of Prussia continued the work, Germany could well have a race of eight foot tall soldiers - just in time for WWI.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 04 August 2007 04:43:56AM 65 points [-]

1) Because they'll say with their lips, "Oh, well, I just want the true essence" and then go on denying homosexuals the right to marry because it's the word of God.

2) What's left, exactly?

3) Nazism would have been unexceptional if it had been an ancient religion instead of a modern government. Why can't modern Nazis disavow ancient Nazi practice in favor of some true essence that makes sense in modern terms?

4) Why not start your search for the true essence in Lord of the Rings, which dominates the Bible both ethically and aesthetically? Or Harry Potter? Or Oh My Goddess?

And above all,

5) Because it's a fantastically elaborate way of refusing to admit you were wrong.

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 08:12:20PM *  15 points [-]

Why can't modern Nazis disavow ancient Nazi practice in favor of some true essence that makes sense in modern terms?

One can argue that holocaust denial is an attempt to bring nazism closer to modern ethical values. Real, authentic Nazis were proud of their achievement and would be outraged by thought that their successors would call them a lie.

Why not start your search for the true essence in Lord of the Rings

Some people do :-P

Comment author: Torben 16 July 2011 03:18:45PM 1 point [-]

China should be the best example of what even moderate levels of capitalism can do.

The Communist bloc aren't know for their environmentally-friendly outcomes or even policies.

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 07:40:39PM -1 points [-]

If China is moderate capitalism, one shudders how would extreme one looks like...

Comment author: Torben 16 July 2011 03:45:16PM *  3 points [-]

I'm sorry me message didn't come across clearly. I can see it's not phrased well.

I'm immensely skeptical of the notion that clever people are needed to tell dumb people what to do to achieve what they want; to "harness the capitalist system". Mostly because so-called smart people have multiple other flaws that mainly stem from their not participating in or acknowledging the marketplace.

Many (public/social) intellectuals have such poor understanding of basic issues of economics, psychology and evolution that their prescribed cures worsen the ailment.

Which is why I mentioned Europe, a moribound continent which doesn't seem to understand that it has to produce stuff to consume stuff and which appears to value appearances and 'ethical policies' over facing economic reality.

Save for problems regarding the tragedy of the commons, I see little hope for centralized harnessing by clever people. I see socialism as the economic variant of creationism: the notion that good, complex things cannot arise without central planning.

Caveat lector: I'm reading Atlas Shrugged right now.

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 07:34:54PM 1 point [-]

I'm immensely skeptical of the notion that clever people are needed to tell dumb people what to do to achieve what they want

Every system ever devised consists of smart people telling the dumb ones what to do. Even in feudal society with hereditary rule, the thicker-than-brick kings were manipulated by smart barons and courtiers :-P

Caveat lector: I'm reading Atlas Shrugged right now.

Generalization from fictional evidence

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 15 July 2011 03:19:36PM 7 points [-]

Actually, there's a difference I didn't think of last night. I believe I'm Jewish and American because people kept telling me I am, and I wasn't immune.

However, there are people who aren't Jewish who feel they are really Jewish, and convert.

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 07:11:01PM *  0 points [-]

There are also people who feel they are Jewish, but other Jews would probably disagree ...

Comment author: orthonormal 16 July 2011 03:25:16PM *  4 points [-]

That's true, but downvoting without comment is especially harmful to new contributors, who might conclude goodness knows what from it. ("Does Less Wrong hate me? Do they regard all meditation as woo? What's going on?")

EDIT: Oh, apparently this happened while the article was in Main, and in that case I'd have approved of the downvotes even so. I only came across it in Discussion, though.

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 07:04:56PM *  0 points [-]

Careless downvoting (and upvoting) is something one can expect from new members. Veterans know that voting is serious thing that is done after deep deliberation and soul searching, but for a newbie, it is just click.

Speaking from my own experience (not that I would dare to call myself veteran)

In response to My true rejection
Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 06:56:57PM 2 points [-]

For pure pragmatic reasons, peaceful methods would be still preferable to violent ones...

Why Terrorism Does Not Work

This is the first article to analyze a large sample of terrorist groups in terms of their policy effectiveness. It includes every foreign terrorist organization (FTO) designated by the U.S. Department of State since 2001. The key variable for FTO success is a tactical one: target selection. Terrorist groups whose attacks on civilian targets outnumber attacks on military targets do not tend to achieve their policy objectives, regardless of their nature. Contrary to the prevailing view that terrorism is an effective means of political coercion, the universe of cases suggests that, first, contemporary terrorist groups rarely achieve their policy objectives and, second, the poor success rate is inherent to the tactic of terrorism itself. The bulk of the article develops a theory for why countries are reluctant to make policy concessions when their civilian populations are the primary target.

In response to comment by [deleted] on An Outside View on Less Wrong's Advice
Comment author: Eugine_Nier 08 July 2011 06:05:29AM *  3 points [-]

What long-term costs would quitting religion have?

Another example is loosing access to useful intersubjective truths that religions have accumulated over the centuries.

Comment author: AlexM 08 July 2011 04:57:15PM *  0 points [-]

Burkean conservatism translated into modern philosophical jargon. This argument would apply only to religions that are at least centuries old. How many of these remain in unchanged form in modern Western world?

Comment author: taryneast 08 July 2011 04:21:52PM 1 point [-]

Geeks, Scifi-fans, role-playing gamers....

Comment author: AlexM 08 July 2011 04:50:53PM 5 points [-]

Maybe in the 80's, when we were only a few Satan worshipping nuts, but we are now in 21st century where science fiction and fantasy decisively won and is The Mainstream Culture now. Of 10 biggest grossing movies of the year, all are F/SF and role playing games are worldwide multibillion industry. Someone who does not know who is Harry Potter and what is Warcraft is the crazy weirdo :P

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 08 July 2011 12:22:21AM 5 points [-]

fashionable signals of officially approved pseudo-nonconformity

things that really matter

Examples of these categories would be helpful. (In general, I find your comments interesting and your perspective important, but have a hard time understanding you due to frequent oblique allusions like these. I know that some of the time you're trying not to step on landmines, which seems like a good idea, but this doesn't seem like one of those cases.)

(On-topic, I agree with Mycroft65536.)

Comment author: AlexM 08 July 2011 05:16:02AM 9 points [-]

Here is fake nonconformist and here is real one.

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