In response to comment by Andrew on Suffering
Comment author: Douglas_Knight 14 August 2009 11:13:24AM 3 points [-]

What does "pretty large" mean of an objection other than "good"? But you say you're not defending MacIntyre.

I'd just like to know what the position is.

The second bullet point looks like the "point and gape" attack. It simply restates emotivism and replies by declaring the opposite to be fact. The whole point of emotivism is that the "I" is implicity in "this is good," that the syntax is deceptive. The defense seems to be that we should trust syntax.

Is "moral approval" any more magic than "moral"? It seems like a pretty straightforward category: when people express approval using moral language. This fails to predict when people will express moral approval rather than the ordinary type, but that hardly makes it magical.

Is there any moral theory to which the third bullet point does not apply? Surely, every moral theory has opponents who will apply it incorrectly to "good morning." The second bullet point says we should trust syntax, while the third that language is tricky.

The quoted part seems like a good response to virtually all of analytic philosophy; perhaps it can be rehabilitated. But surely emotivism is explicit about promoting performance over meaning? Isn't that thewhole point of emotivism as opposed to other forms of moral relativism?

In response to comment by Douglas_Knight on Suffering
Comment author: Andrew 14 August 2009 01:38:00PM 2 points [-]

1) "pretty large" tends to mean the same thing as "fundamental", "general", "widely binding" -- at least in my experience. E.g., "Godel's Theorem was a pretty large rejection of the Russell program."

And no, I'm not defending MacIntyre. All I'm trying to demonstrate is that his arguments against emotivism are worthy enough for emotivists to learn.

2) No. You've never heard someone say, "I may not like it, but it's still good?" For example, there are people who are personally dislike gay marriage, but support it anyway because they feel it is good.

3) Defining "moral approval" as "when people express approval using moral language" says nothing about what the term "moral" means, and that's something any ethical system really ought to get to eventually.

4) Yes: deontological systems don't give one whit about the syntax of a statement; if your 'intention' was bad, your speech act was still bad. Utilitarianism also is more concerned with the actual weal or woe caused by a sentence, not its syntatic form.

And I'm done. If you want to learn more about MacIntyre, read the damn book. I'm a mathematician, not a philosopher.

In response to comment by Andrew on Suffering
Comment author: Psychohistorian 14 August 2009 12:13:01AM *  0 points [-]

One should generally seek reasons as a defense from argument, not rationalization.

{Edit: My mistake, he really did mean emotivism and this paragraph kind of misses the point. Not going to delete, as it may confuse later comments.} More to the point, though, a refutation of emotivism is not a refutation of moral relativism, and, based on the little bit I could get off Amazon previews, relativism seems to be his problem, even if he wants to straw-man it as emotivism. Similarly, TGGP (given that he redundantly conjoins "I do not believe anything is good or bad in an objective sense" with "emotivism") seems to be more about the relativism than the emotivism specifically.

If that author actually manages to put a decent dent in moral relativism, please explain so I can go buy this book immediately, because I would be literally stunned to see such an argument.

In response to comment by Psychohistorian on Suffering
Comment author: Andrew 14 August 2009 02:36:34AM 2 points [-]

Actually, based on this comment, TGGP actually believes in emotivism as such.

He isolates three reasons in the second chapter:

"'Moral judgments express feelings or attitudes,' it is said. 'What kind of feelings or attitudes?' we ask. 'Feelings or attitudes of approval,' is the reply. 'What kind of approval?' we ask, perhaps remarking that approval is of many kinds. It is in answer to this question that every version of emotivism either remains silent or... becomes vacuously circular [by identifying the approval as moral approval]" (12, 13).

  • Emotivism conflates 'expressions of personal preference' ("I like this!") with 'evaluative expressions' ("This is good!"), despite the fact the first is gets part of its meaning from the person saying it ("I like this!") and the second doesn't.

  • Emotivism attempts to assign meaning to the sentence, when the sentence itself might express different feelings or attitudes in different uses. (See Gandalf's take on "Good morning!" in The Hobbit). This is probably where emotivism can be rehabilitated, as MacIntyre goes on to say:

"This suggests that we should not simply rely on these objections to reject the emotive theory, but that we should consider whether it ought not to have been proposed as a theory about the use -- understood as purpose or function -- of members of a certain class of expressions rather than about their meaning...." (13).

Note that I'm not defending MacIntyre's position, here; I'm only bringing it up because an emotivist should know what his or her response to it is, because it is a pretty large objection. My experience is that they go into absolute denial upon hearing the second and third objections, and that's just not cool.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 13 August 2009 03:17:42PM 0 points [-]

PS again:

Don't forget to retract: http://www.weidai.com/smart-losers.txt

Smart agents win.

Comment author: Andrew 13 August 2009 11:47:05PM 0 points [-]

So how do the the smart agents win that game? It has too many plot twists for me to follow.

In response to comment by Yvain on Suffering
Comment author: teageegeepea 03 August 2009 10:43:19PM *  4 points [-]

I am an emotivist and do not believe anything is good or bad in an objective sense. I think some Indians may have had guns by the 1700s, but their bows and arrows weren't terribly outclassed by many of the old muskets back then either (I'm actually discussing that at my blog right now). The biggest advantage of the colonists was their ever-increasing numbers (while disease steadily drained those of the natives). The indians frequently did respond in kind to killings and the extent to which they could do so would strike me as as the most significant factor to take into consideration when it comes to the decision to kill them.

There is also the factor of trade relations that could be disrupted, but most people engaged in prolonged voluntary trade are going to have significant ass-kicking ability or otherwise they would have been conquered and their goods seized by force already. I understand Peter Leeson has a paper "Trading with bandits" disputing that point, but the frequency with which dominance based resource extraction occurs makes me think the phenomena he discusses only occur under very limited conditions.

In response to comment by teageegeepea on Suffering
Comment author: Andrew 13 August 2009 11:38:40PM 1 point [-]

As an emotivist, you might be interested in reading After Virtue, particularly the first three or four chapters. He presents a rather compelling argument against emotivism, and if you want to maintain your emotivism you probably ought to find some rationalization defending yourself from his argument.

Comment author: Annoyance 12 May 2009 01:47:51PM 3 points [-]

If you're going to have an "in conclusion" at the end of your post, it would be nice if the post had a presented thesis that the rest of the material supports or at least is involved in analyzing.

Comment author: Andrew 12 May 2009 01:53:36PM 0 points [-]

Noted.

In response to comment by CronoDAS on You Are A Brain
Comment author: MBlume 10 May 2009 10:17:12PM 6 points [-]

I've had a crush on Kimiko Ross for some time now, if that helps.

In response to comment by MBlume on You Are A Brain
Comment author: Andrew 12 May 2009 01:43:56PM 1 point [-]

She's really hot.

In response to No One Knows Stuff
Comment author: MrHen 12 May 2009 01:33:04PM 7 points [-]

Take a second to go upvote You Are A Brain if you haven't already...

This is extremely off-topic, but please do not tell me what to upvote. I actually downvoted that post because the slideshow was completely useless to me and I thought its quality was poor. This isn't to slam Liron; his post just didn't do it for me.

But just because you really, really liked it doesn't mean you get to tell me what to like.

In response to comment by MrHen on No One Knows Stuff
Comment author: Andrew 12 May 2009 01:37:52PM 2 points [-]

I agree with the parent. This article was okay, but can you fawn over Liron somewhere else -- perhaps in the comments on its article?

Rationality in the Media: Don't (New Yorker, May 2009)

7 Andrew 12 May 2009 01:32PM

Link: "Don't: The secret of self-control", Jonah Lehrer. The New Yorker. May 18, 2009.

Article Summary

Walter Mischel, a psychologist at Columbia University, has spent a long time studying what correlates with failing or passing a test intended to measure a preschooler's ability to delay gratification. The original experiment, involving a marshmallow and the promise of another if the first one remained uneaten for fifteen minutes, took place at Bing Nursery School in the "late 1960's". Mischel found several correlates, none of them really surprising. He discovered a few methods that allowed children to learn better delay gratification, but it is unclear if the learning the tricks changed any of the correlations. He and the research tradition he started are now waiting for fMRI studies, because that's what the discriminating 21st century psychologist does.

Best line: "'I know I shouldn't like them,' she says. 'But they're just so delicious!'"

continue reading »
Comment author: Wei_Dai 09 May 2009 08:58:15AM 9 points [-]

Suppose you test Fermat's Last Theorem for n up to 10^10, and don't find a counterexample. How much evidence does that give you for FLT being true? In other words, how do you compute P(a counterexample exists with n<=10^10 | FLT is false), since that's what's needed to do a Bayesian update with this inductive evidence? (Assume this is before the proof was found.)

I don't dispute that mathematicians do seem to reason in ways that are similar to using probabilities, but I'd like to know where these "probabilities" are coming from and whether the reasoning process really is isomorphic to probability theory. What you call "heuristic" and "intuition" are the results of computations being done by the brains of mathematicians, and it would be nice to know what the algorithms are (or should be), but we don't have them even in an idealized form.

Comment author: Andrew 09 May 2009 09:35:26AM *  2 points [-]

There's a difficulty here involving the fact that every finite set of possible counterexamples has measure zero in the set {(a, b, c, n) | a, b, c, n in N} equipped with the probability measure that assigns each possible counterexample an equal probability.

So all the usual biases and cognitive gotchas involving probability and infinity come into play (even when the people doing the thinking are mathematicians!), and all bets are off.

My hypothesis is that the commonly used prior for counterexample distributions is exponential. As the lower bound K >= a, b, c, n on possible counterexamples increases, the exponential is updated into something close to uniform on the rest of {(a, b, c, n) | a, b, c, n in N}.

In response to Where are we?
Comment author: ciphergoth 02 April 2009 09:53:09PM 1 point [-]

Post in this thread if you live outside Europe, the US, or Canada.

In response to comment by ciphergoth on Where are we?
Comment author: Andrew 03 April 2009 07:50:39AM 2 points [-]

Shanghai, China

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