In response to Belief in Belief
Comment author: Alice 06 October 2008 12:43:20PM 2 points [-]

Does the idea that it is a good thing to subject our beliefs (and even our belief in belief) to logical and analytical scrutiny count as belief in itself or is it so justifiable as to count as knowledge? If so, what is the justification?

In response to comment by Alice on Belief in Belief
Comment author: Anomylous 09 December 2014 05:36:02PM 0 points [-]

I don't think it does. Scrutinizing your beliefs is a corollary - it naturally follows if you believe that "Truth is good and valuable and its pursuit is worthwhile." We value truth, we want our maps to match the territory, and so we scrutinize our beliefs. If anything needs to be justified, it's the value placed on truth and knowledge thereof.

And that's actually an interesting problem. Although my intuition shouts TRUTH IS GOOD, there's not much I can say to prove that statement, outside of "It's useful to be able to make accurate predictions." It seems like the goodness of truth ought to be provable some way. But maybe it's just a moral value that our (sub-)culture happens to hold particularly strongly? Perhaps someone better versed than I am in the arts of rationality can give a better answer.

Comment author: Anomylous 20 November 2014 05:42:33AM 0 points [-]

I can't tell, from your post, what kind of propositions you are trying to convince yourself of. If it's an attempt to win competitions, then you're putting your effort in the wrong place. Whether you win any given competition is largely going to be determined by who else shows up to compete. Improving your chances means reducing the number of people who can reliably beat you, and that only happens through research and practice (since murdering competitors is generally seen as bad sportsmanship).

Other than that, it sounds like you've discovered the flaw in Pascal's original wager (well, one of its flaws anyway). You can decide it's rational to believe something, but actually believing it is a different matter. In religion, actual belief is key, and therefore Pascal's wager isn't going to make a lot of true converts, even though it's a beautiful piece of reasoning.

I am having a similar issue, and am currently dealing with it by developing better acting skills. As long as I do and say things consistent with the belief set I wish I had (and don't), my ends are achieved regardless of whether I actually hold that belief set. This may or may not be applicable to your situation.

Comment author: shminux 04 November 2014 10:13:19PM *  1 point [-]

What is the relative value of the pursuit of rationality and intellectual honesty, versus protecting the happiness of your family and closest friends? It turns out that, when religion gets involved, this is a real choice individuals may have to make.

Yes, it is a rather common question here. In my experience, there is often a way to do both, though it is rarely obvious or easy. Feel free to give the details, and maybe people can help you figure out how you can win without being dishonest.

Comment author: Anomylous 05 November 2014 12:56:11AM *  2 points [-]

Details: Said friends and family are Christian, of varying degrees of evangelistic fervor. For a long time, I was very definitely not-Christian, which caused them considerable grief on my behalf. Then, I converted, and there was commensurate rejoicing. My family and friends are honest enough to not try to pretend that being Christian fixes all of their problems, but they also hold Christianity to be a real and good truth, and are happy that I have seen the light, in much the same way that a community of rationalists would rejoice when somebody gave up intentionally deceiving themselves.

I don't believe that being Christian and rationalist are necessarily exclusive, as one of my best friends is both, but I don't know how he does it. Maybe I just never understood the distinction between faith and self-deception, which he seems to be able to make. So, I fall pretty squarely into the label of "deist" - which is not the same thing as having accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, which I consider, on balance, to be only mildly less ridiculous than the Wiccan phase I went through as a teenager (yeah, that one didn't go over well with the family...)

Were I to recant, they wouldn't abandon me. Instead, they would be distressed on my behalf, and lovingly try to guide me back to the light, causing both parties great frustration when it didn't work. It seems that the best option is to allow everybody to go on assuming I believe as they do, and even tell a few lies to preserve the illusion. This hurts my conscience a bit, but that can be regarded as something I do to care for the people who love me. Or, it could be regarded as weighting truth too lightly and comfort too heavily; that has a name and it's called being a coward.

Comment author: Anomylous 04 November 2014 09:49:15PM 2 points [-]

I'm 21, in college studying to be a professional musician. Through my teenage years, I would intentionally deceive myself, and act from emotion rather than logic. Luckily for me, I figured out that this was non-optimal before any serious harm was done, and have chosen the path of rationality. It was difficult at first. Although I don't remember for sure, I think I found this site through a late-night Google search, looking for anything that might help me in my quest to vanquish emotion.

I may be a bit of a misfit here. I'm neither a hard scientist, nor particularly excited about AI or transhumanism; I also believe that death is simply the price you pay for getting to live, rather than something to be feared and avoided. However, as mentioned, I'm very interested in learning to live rationally, and in the pursuit of perfection both as a musician and as a person.

One question that I'm pondering right now is this: What is the relative value of the pursuit of rationality and intellectual honesty, versus protecting the happiness of your family and closest friends? It turns out that, when religion gets involved, this is a real choice individuals may have to make. I can give details if anybody is interested.

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