Comment author: Salemicus 26 July 2014 08:58:11AM 2 points [-]

Stung less than what? What's the baseline? The ever-Green Martian is going to tell himself that the baseline is if he went around stinging humans, and so expect praise for being so ethical.

But from the human point of view, the baseline is if this Martian never existed - in which case certainly no humans would get stung by him. So he will get no praise.

Comment author: B_For_Bandana 26 July 2014 12:12:17PM *  -2 points [-]

Yes, I meant less than if the green Martian was more cavalier about tickling humans.

And of course, providing value, and getting recognized for providing value, are two completely different things. Each can and do happen without the other happening.

Comment author: Salemicus 25 July 2014 05:39:54PM *  5 points [-]

Firstly, I like your analogy.

Secondly, I would say that all ethics occurs in a feedback loop. Personally, I would recommend Buchanan's short essay "Order Defined in the Process of its Emergence", which in my opinion applies just as much to ethical choices as it does to economic ones. I don't think it's meaningful to ask whether it's ethical for Martians to tickle humans as an abstract question, any more than it's meaningful to ask whether it's ethical for a lion to eat an antelope - or for an antelope to run away. Rather, you need to ask - what is life like for Martians who internalise a value that it's (not) ethical to tickle humans. What is life like for humans who internalise a value that it's (not) ethical to be so tickled? What is life like in societies where those values are promulgated? And of course the question of "what is life like" is itself value-laden.

In other words, what is the value of your values?

In my experience, humans are not delicate flowers. They want to be tickled. They are forgiving if a Martian does it wrong and accidentally stings. If a Martian dedicates himself to never stinging a human, humans will never praise him for it, because he will remain Green forever - from a human point of view, the good Martians are the Blue ones. His values bring no value to him, or to anyone else. Instead, he is going to end up gazing at his own navel (or perhaps, antenna) wondering why the humans are so cruel. But he has nothing of value to offer them, and he's dug that hole for himself.

Comment author: B_For_Bandana 25 July 2014 07:51:54PM 4 points [-]

His values bring no value to him, or to anyone else.

Well, not quite. The humans really are being stung less.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 25 July 2014 05:15:37PM 8 points [-]

Here are some partial attempts at a solution, ordered from the one I would support the most to the one I would support the least:

  • Recruit the subset of rare humans who enjoy green tickling and employ them as tickling punchbags for green Martians to practice on.
  • Make green Martians wear soft clothes that do not dampen their tentacles' sensitivity too much.
  • Use some medium (animals, dolls, androids) where green Martians can practice their tickling skills without harming anyone.
  • Find a way to chemically induce metamorphosis in green Martians.
  • Use plastic surgery, medications, or artificial selection to make green Martians' tentacles less stingy.
  • For parents and/or cell donors who are willing, find a way to engineer blue-born Martians.
  • Perform non-interventional, follow-up studies on elderly green Martians to assess the worth of a non-tickling life.
Comment author: B_For_Bandana 25 July 2014 07:05:43PM *  5 points [-]

Recruit the subset of rare humans who enjoy green tickling and employ them as tickling punchbags for green Martians to practice on.

The laws of Earth prohibit tickling for pay. Interestingly, the laws of Earth do not prohibit paying a Martian and a human actor to act as if the Martian is zapping the human's brain with a ray gun (which in real life is way worse than tickling, even by a green Martian, and which no humans or Martians actually enjoy doing) and then selling the video. It's weird. [ETA: I misunderstood the analogy. Doing experiments on the mothership for pay is illegal. Tickling for pay is legal in theory, but it would seem weird to most people, so it usually isn't done.]

Your other solutions are worth trying. However, I notice that most of them are blunt physical solutions that depend crucially on tickling being a very simple physical action that we have the technology to modify, and not, say, a stand-in for an interlocking set of horrifyingly complicated social problems involving desire, fear, pain, status, envy, humiliation, hope, joy, resentment, contempt, shame, and, oh yeah, politics. Lucky we're just talking about tickling.

In response to Jokes Thread
Comment author: B_For_Bandana 24 July 2014 06:22:58PM *  7 points [-]

"I lack all conviction," he thought. "Guess I'm the best!"

In response to comment by [deleted] on Politics is hard mode
Comment author: [deleted] 23 July 2014 11:49:07AM 1 point [-]

A more precise description of the Italian system is: if the centre-right coalition comprises 40% of the parliament, the centre-left coalition comprises 45% of the parliament, and the lone contrarian party comprises 15% of the parliament, then the lone contrarian party gets to decide everything (except questions on which the centre-right coalition and the centre-left coalition agree, which aren't likely to be voted on in the parliament in the first place) without needing to be in a coalition, and hence without needing to be sane enough to be in a coalition. (BTW, nobody actually likes the centre-right coalition or the centre-left coalition: people vote for the centre-right coalition just because they dislike the centre-left coalition and don't want it to get a plurality of seats and vice versa.)

(I'm not familiar with German politics so I don't know what prevents this dynamic from occurring there too.)

In response to comment by [deleted] on Politics is hard mode
Comment author: B_For_Bandana 23 July 2014 11:38:34PM 0 points [-]

then the lone contrarian party gets to decide everything

How often do the center-right and center-left coalitions look the crazy thing the lone contrarian party wants to do, go "lol, nope" and make a centrist compromise with each other? Is that possible/common?

Comment author: B_For_Bandana 07 July 2014 05:33:42PM 10 points [-]

In times like these I really have to wonder why it's never (or at least rarely, to my eye) stressed that self-awareness is probably the single most important component of a healthy life. We're constantly handed very specific definitions of good behavior, complex moral and legal codes, questionable social constructs, and so on. I don't remember ever really being told to take a step back--to step back as far as possible--and look constructively at myself. But increasingly I feel that the only dividing line between being "that guy" and being a net positive to those around you comes out of being able to look at yourself critically and build constructively.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying or assuming that introspection is simple. But for every ten groups explaining religious ideology to me, or telling me why their political candidate is best, I wish one would have told me to get out of my own head as much as possible.

An answer to a possible objection to cash-transfer charities

7 B_For_Bandana 01 July 2014 12:49AM

This is an answer to a possible objection to cash-transfer charities like GiveDirectly. I remember reading about this on LessWrong a while ago, but I can't find the discussion now. I was planning on asking about this on an Open Thread, but I got curious, did my own research, and answered my own question, so now it gets its own Discussion post.

Cash-transfer charities do something very simple: they take money given by donors, find very poor people, and give them the money, in instalments. A prominent example is GiveWell's current top charity, GiveDirectly, which gives yearly gifts on the order of $1000 to very poor people in Kenya and Uganda. There is a lot of convincing research that cash-transfer charities are very effective at helping poor people.

There is a complicated debate about whether cash transfers are actually the very best way of helping poor people, or if there are in-kind charities that do the job a little better. This post is not about that. Instead, this post is just about a possible problem with the mechanics of cash transfers. The problem is this: say a donor in (say) the US gives money to GiveDirectly, and they send that money to a person in (say) Kenya. The recipient in Kenya now has a larger bank balance. But this doesn't actually create any wealth in Kenya; it just increases the amount of currency chasing the same pile of goods there. The person getting the transfer gains a positional advantage over her neighbors, but the total wealth there stays exactly the same, which of course is no good. What we as donors would really like to do is make sure that we are in some sense donating real wealth; that we are giving up a claim on some of the world's resources in such a way that other, poorer people then get to claim those resources themselves. But if just money, but no, like, actual stuff, is transferred, then giving to charity just amounts to a bookkeeping trick.

The way out of this, of course, is global trade. Dollars in the US aren't separate from dollars in Kenya; they both participate in the same global market. If global trade is efficient enough, then Kenya as a whole gains dollars relative to the US, and the buying power of their whole economy increases relative to the US economy. So Kenya does really get a bigger pile of goods for their higher number of dollars to chase, so I can transfer real, actual wealth just by changing numbers on a computer screen.

But again, this all depends on global trade, and in particular trade between the US and Kenya, being efficient. A way to measure this is correlation between the price of the same commodity in different countries. If the correlation is low, that suggests the two economies operate pretty much separately. But if the price correlation is high, that suggests that the two countries are both participating in the same market together, and transferring money reliably transfers wealth.

I decided to test this using the price of crude oil. Here's a graph of the price of crude oil in Kenya and in the United States, in inflation-adjusted US dollars, from January 2007 to January 2014. The red line is the US, the blue line is Kenya.

Oil price graph

US data here: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=RWTC&f=M

Kenya data here: http://www.petroleum.co.ke/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=108

And the correlation is 0.93, according to Excel. So the economies seem tightly connected enough that transferring money does transfer real wealth, and you can be confident that your donation to GiveDirectly doesn't have perverse unintended consequences (or at least, not this kind).

A big caveat: I am no kind of economist; this is purely the result of back-of-the-envelope, common-sense layperson's thinking, and some numbers I found on the internet. Problems I could have include:

1. My intuition that commodity price correlation implies "connectedness" in the relevant way is just wrong.

2. In theory it's okay, but just one commodity doesn't give you the whole picture.

3. Crude oil is not a good index to use.

4. Something else?

Any criticism or other thoughts welcomed.

Comment author: soreff 14 June 2014 11:15:13PM 6 points [-]

Can one use the backwards-E existence symbol as one of the letters?

Comment author: B_For_Bandana 15 June 2014 12:09:32PM 17 points [-]

If we want ease-of-use, the fact that you typed out "backwards-E existence symbol" instead of "∃" isn't encouraging...

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 01 May 2014 09:50:01PM 0 points [-]

Online Videos Thread

Comment author: B_For_Bandana 03 May 2014 09:25:01PM *  5 points [-]

An old Ikea commercial gives an amusing example of the difference between fuzzies and utilons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I07xDdFMdgw

Comment author: B_For_Bandana 03 May 2014 02:28:58AM *  26 points [-]

One afternoon a student said "Roshi, I don't really understand what's going on. I mean, we sit in zazen and we gassho to each other and everything, and Felicia got enlightened when the bottom fell out of her water-bucket, and Todd got enlightened when you popped him one with your staff, and people work on koans and get enlightened, but I've been doing this for two years now, and the koans don't make any sense, and I don't feel enlightened at all! Can you just tell me what's going on?"

"Well you see," Roshi replied, "for most people, and especially for most educated people like you and I, what we perceive and experience is heavily mediated, through language and concepts that are deeply ingrained in our ways of thinking and feeling. Our objective here is to induce in ourselves and in each other a psychological state that involves the unmediated experience of the world, because we believe that that state has certain desirable properties. It's impossible in general to reach that state through any particular form or method, since forms and methods are themselves examples of the mediators that we are trying to avoid. So we employ a variety of ad hoc means, some linguistic like koans and some non-linguistic like zazen, in hopes that for any given student one or more of our methods will, in whatever way, engender the condition of non-mediated experience that is our goal. And since even thinking in terms of mediators and goals tends to reinforce our undesirable dependency on concepts, we actively discourage exactly this kind of analytical discourse."

And the student was enlightened.

View more: Prev | Next