Thanks for expressing this perspective.

I note Musk was the first one to start a competitor, which seems to me to be very costly.

I think that founding OpenAI could be right if the non-profit structure was likely to work out. I don't know if that made sense at the time. Altman has overpowered getting fired by the board, removed parts of the board, and rumor has it he is moving to a for-profit, which is strong evidence against the non-profit being able to withstand the pressures that were coming, but even without Altman I suspect it would still involve billions of $ of funding, partnerships like the one with Microsoft, and other for-profit pressures to be the sort of player it is today. So I don't know that Musk's plan was viable at all.

Maybe there's a hope there, but I'll point out that many of the people needed to run a business (finance, legal, product, etc) are not idealistic scientists who would be willing to have their equity become worthless.

I know that in my intellectual history it was Abram Demski's post The Credit Assignment Problem.

Unfortunately a fair chunk of my information comes from non-online sources, so I do not have links to share.

I do think that in order for government department to blatantly approve an unsafe model, it would take a lot of people to have secret agreements with.

Corruption is rarely blatant or overt. See this thread for what I believe to be an example for the CEO of RAND misleading a senate committee about his beliefs about the existential threat posed by AI. See this discussion about a time when an AI company attempted (Conjecture) to get critical comments about another AI company (OpenAI) taken down from LessWrong. I am not proposing a large conspiracy, I am describing lots of small bits of corruption and failures of integrity summing to a system failure. 

There will be millions of words of regulatory documents, and it is easy for things to slip such that some particular model class is not considered worth evaluating, or where the consequences of a failed evaluation is pretty weak.

The central thing I am talking about is basic measures for accountability, of which I consider very high up to be engaging with criticism, dialogue, and argument (as is somewhat natural given my background philosophy from growing up on LessWrong).

The story of a King doing things for good reasons lacks any mechanism for accountability if the King is behaving badly. It is important to design systems of power that do not rely on the people in power being good and right, but instead make it so that if they behave badly, they are held to account. I don't think I have to explain why incentives and accountability matter for how the powerful wield their powers.

My basic claim is that the plans for avoiding omnicide or omnicide-adjacent outcomes are not workable (slash there-are-no-plans), there is little-to-no responsibility being taken, and that there is no accountability for this illegitimate use of power.

If you believe that there is any accountability for the CEOs of the companies building potentially omnicidal machines and risking the lives of 8 billion people (such as my favorite mechanism: showing up and respectfully engaging with the people they have power over, but also any other mechanism you like; for instance there are not currently any criminal penalties for such behaviors, but that would be a good example if it did exist), I request you provide links, I would welcome specifics to talk about.

I'm having a hard time following this argument. To be clear, I'm saying that while certain people were in regulatory bodies in the US & UK govts, they actively had secret legal contracts to not criticize the leading industry player, else (prseumably) they could be sued for damages. This is not a past shady deals, this is about current people during their current tenure having been corrupted.

I'm sorry, I'm confused about something here, I'll back up briefly and then respond to your point.

My model is:

• The vast majority of people who've seriously thought about it believe we don't know how to solve the alignment problem.
• More fundamentally, there's a sense in which we "basically don't know what we're doing" with regards to AI. People talk about "agents" and "goals" and "intentions" but we're kind of like at the phlogiston theory of heat or vitalism theory of life. We don't get it. We have no equations, we have no theory, we're just like "man these systems can really write and make pretty pictures" like we used to say "I don't get it but some things are hot and some things are cold". Science was tried, found hard, engineering was tried, found easy, and now we're only doing that.
• Many/most folks who've given it serious thought are pretty confident that the default outcome is doom (omnicide or permanent disempowerment), though it may be way kinda worse (e.g. eternal torture) or slightly better (e.g. we get to keep earth), due to intuitive arguments about instrumental goals and selecting on minds in the way machine learning works. (This framing is a bit local, in that not every scientist in the world would quite know what I'm referring to here.)
• People are working hard and fast to build these AIs anyway because it's a profitable industry.

This literally spells the end of humanity (barring the eternal torture option or the grounded on earth option).

Back to your comment: some people are building AGI and knowingly threatening all of our lives. I propose they should show up and explain themselves. 

A natural question is "Why should they talk with you Ben? You're just one of the 8 billion people whose lives they're threatening."

That is why I am further suggesting they talk with many of the great and worthy thinkers who are of the position this is clearly bad, like Hinton, Bengio, Russell, Yudkowsky, Bostrom, etc.

I am reading you say something like "But as long as someone is defending their behavior, they don't need to show up to defend it themselves."

This lands with me like we are two lowly peasants, who are talking about how the King has mistreated us due to how the royal guards often beat us up and rape the women. I'm saying "I would like the King to answer for himself" and I'm hearing you say "But I know a guy in the next pub who thinks the King is making good choices with his powers. If you can argue with him, I don't see why the King needs to come down himself." I would like to have the people who are wielding the power defend themselves.

Again, this is not me proposing business norms, it's me saying "the people who are taking the action that looks like it kills us, I want those people in particular to show up and explain themselves".

I believe the disagreement is not about CEOs, it's about illegitimate power. If you'll allow me a brief detour, I'll try to explain.

Sometimes people grant other people power over them. For instance, I have agreed to work at my company. I've agreed that my CEO can fire me, and make many other demands of me, in exchange for money and other various demands I can make of him. Ideally we entered into this agreement freely and without inappropriate pressure.

Other times, people get power over people without any agreement or granting. Your parent typically has a lot of power over you until you are 18. They can determine what you eat, where you are physically located, what privacy you have, what resources you have, etc. Also, as has been very important for most of history, people have been able to be physically violent to one another and hurt people or even end their lives. Neither of these powers are come to consensually.

For the latter, an important question to ask is "How does one wield this power well? What does it mean to wield it well vs poorly?" There are many ways to parent, many choices about diet and schooling and sleep times and what are fair punishment. But some parents starve their children and beat them for not following instructions and sexually assault them. This is an inappropriate use of power.

There's a legitimacy that comes by being granted power, and an illegitimacy that comes with getting or wielding power that you were not granted.

I think that there's a big question about how to wield it well vs poorly, and how to respect people you have illegitimate powers over. Something I believe is that society functions better if we take seriously the attempt to wield it well. To not casually kill someone if you can get away with it and feel like it, but consider them as people worthy of respect, and ask how you can respect the people you've been non-consensually given power over.

This requires doing some work. It involves asking yourself what's a reasonable amount of effort to spend modeling their preferences given how much power you have over someone, it involves asking yourself if society has any good received wisdom on what to do with this particular power, and it involves engaging with people who are aggrieved by your use of power over them.

Now, the standard model for companies and businesses is a libtertarian-esque free market, where all trades are consensual and have no inappropriate pressure. This is like the first situation I describe, where a company has no people it has undue power over, no people who it can treat better or worse with the power it has over them.

The situation where you are building machines you believe may kill literally everyone, is like the second situation, where you have a very different power dynamic, where you're making choices that affect everyone's lives and that they had little-to-no say in. In such a situation, I think if you are going to do what is good and right, you owe it to show up and engage with those who believe you are using the power you have over them in ways that are seriously hurting them.

That's the difference between this CEO situation and all of the others. It's not about standards for CEOs, its about standards for illegitimate power.

This kind of talking-with-the-aggrieved-people-you-have-immense-power-over is a way of showing the people basic respect, and it is not present in this case. I believe these people are risking my life and many others', and they seem to me disrespectful and largely uninterested in showing up to talk with the people whose lives they are risking.

It is good enough for me, that the critic's argument are engaged by someone on your side. Going there personally seems unnecessary.

What engagement are you referring to? If there is such a defense that is officially endorsed by one of the leading companies developing potential omnicide-machines (or endorsed by the CEO/cofounders), that seriosuly engages with worthy critics, I don't recall it in this moment.

After all, if the goal is to build safe AI, you personally knowing a niche technical solution isn't necessary, if you have people on your team who are aware of publicly produced solutions as well as internal ones.

I believe that nobody on earth has a solution to the alignment problem, of course this would all be quite different if I felt anyone credibly claimed to have a good such solution.

Edit: Pardon me, I hit cmd-enter a little too quickly, I have now slightly edited my comment to be less frantic and a little more substantive.

I don't believe that last claim. I believe there is no industry where external auditors are known to have secret, legal contracts showing them to be liable for damages for criticizing the companies that they regulate. Or if there is, it's probably in a nation rife with corruption (e.g. some African countries, or perhaps Russia).