low IQ

How does low IQ directly cause crime?

properly police black neighborhoods

What does this entail?

Not to mention that we'll never solve the problem of large amount of black-on-black crime if we can't admit it's cause.

What is it's cause in your view? How do we solve it?

Under a common definition of racism as belief in meaningful differences between races, these views are racism. So?

I mean "racism" in a way that is significantly consequential for those who are discriminated against. An active racism.

If there truly are meaningful genetic differences between races, then so be it. But that seems to be the justification for the portion of "white supremacist" Trump supporters I mentioned above. It's an angry racism that seems likely to be problematic.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

Extreme in terms of U.S. then? Extreme is relative, right? That's what you're saying?

Hm. These views seem very likely to lead to racism.

I've read Breitbart frequently since Steve Bannon was added to Trump's campaign because I'm fascinated with how Trump (an obvious hustler/fraud/charlatan in my view) has managed to get this close to the Oval Office. It's been illuminating (in a disturbing way) in understanding where I now believe a lot of the Trump support is coming from.

I'm confident a portion of his support is just Red-Team-no-matter-what Repubs. And some are one issue Pro-Life Christians. And some are fiscal conservatives who are sincerely just concerned about the debt and spending. And some are blue collar workers in areas (Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc.) where the global economy/technology caused manufacturing to dry up decades ago and they are mad as hell about the facts of the world and will just keep voting to change something, anything until they day they die...

But there is also this (disturbingly large) element of the movement that think non-white people are less than white people. Like, this group of Trump supporters are literally white supremacists—they believe white people are better suited for civilization. And, of course, no one can say that and politically get away with it in 2016, so they use all sorts of dog whistle-y language to imply it—including the main Trumpian slogan, "Make America Great Again­™"

There are smart people, there are stupid people, and the correlation to some outwardly visible feature like the colour of the skin doesn't matter much.

How do you mean? You're saying you believe it to be true that, generally, people with black skin color are more likely to have a significantly lower IQ than people with white skin color... And you believe that IQ is correlated with life outcomes. How can this not matter much?

I find affirmative action counter-productive.

I also have the sense this may be true in many instances. The theory seems solid, but I'm not sure it works as intended in practice.

For another example, I don't believe the claims that inner-city schools (read: black) lag behind suburban schools (read: not black) because of lack of funding or because of surrounding poverty.

Why do they lag behind? Is it because of the IQ difference you believe exists between black and whites?

...

You say you're not a white nationalist...I'm curious about your reaction to those who are? In regard to segregation, for instance... You say you don't think the Europeans should re-colonise Africa for the natives' own good—Why not?

Will it? I agree that it will cause some harm, but I'm not sure about "significant".

I'd submit it's a matter of definition.

Note that race-based discrimination is explicitly illegal and agencies such as EEOC do prosecute. Moreover, EEOC uses the concept of "disparate impact" which basically means that if you statistically discriminate regardless of your intent, you are in trouble.

Great point. I didn't know this. I'll have to do more reading. Generally though, I'd concede anti-discrimination laws have an impact.

Also, did a bias against those-not-like-me cause employment problems for, say, the Chinese? Why not?

Well, the Chinese weren't enslaved. And it's my experience there is not nearly as much racism against Asians as against blacks in America, but that is just my anecdotal experience.

I am saying people with African ancestry (regardless of their citizenship) belong to a gene pool which has average IQ lower than that of people with European ancestry. Lest you think that the whites are the pinnacle of evolution, the European gene pool has lower average IQ than, say, Han Chinese.

I've looked into this only briefly, and I'll take your word for it.

There are two separable questions here. The first one is do you agree that people with African ancestry have lower average IQ (by about one standard deviation) than people with European ancestry? That question has nothing to do with slavery and segregation. If you do not, we hit a major disagreement right here and there's not much point in discussing why contemporary black Americans have different outcomes than whites or Asians. If you do, we can move on to the second question: what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans?

It makes sense to me to separate this into two questions like you propose. As I said, I'll defer to your research and knowledge on the first point (and suspend my skepticism in the process), and move to your second question.

As to that second question—what is the relative role of various factors which determine the current state of the black Americans—I'm interested to know what you think, given your view that people with African ancestry have lower IQs...

I might suggest the following approach. If you agree that the average IQ of blacks is lower, then let's estimate the effect of that on social outcomes. It might be that this cause will explain a great deal of what we observe. If so, there's no need to bring in the history of slavery and segregation as a major factor because there wouldn't be much left to explain.

...You've stated it's complex, but roughly, what percentage of contemporary social outcomes experienced by blacks in America are a result of genetic differences ("nature"), and what percentage are a result of environmental factors (nurture)? Of that percentage that you deem to be the result of environmental factors, what portion is a result of slavery/segregation/discrimination? Again, just looking for a rough sketch from your mind here, as I recognize you have stated it's complex and difficult to parse.

Also, I'm wondering how the idea people with African ancestry have lower average IQ than people with European ancestry informs your politics?

This is about as weak as an argument can possibly get.

The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination in America has had an effect is not in dispute. The argument is regarding it's significance.

[Your hypothetical case study] is not evidence.

I fully agree. I was trying to distill the issue into simple terms. I would argue it's nearly self evident that opportunity is passed on over generations, and that a head start for a group of people based on race could be persistent over multiple generations.

[The study you linked which shows resumes with black sounding names are less likely to receive callbacks for job opportunities than white sounding names] does not demonstrate irrational discrimination. They did not consider the possibility that a person's race actually gives you useful information about them.

Are you saying it is appropriate for employers to discriminate based on race?

Jesse Jackson says something about his contrasting intuitions about black and white people...

Per capita murder rates are no doubt higher among blacks. The question is what caused this.

Perhaps you have heard the saying "rags to riches to rags in three generations". When I look at my family tree I see this happening many times.

You are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.

Where I live a lot of the local whites are descended from prisoners who were slaves. They do not form an underclass in any way shape or form. In fact it is high status to have convict ancestry.

They are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.

Edit: Regarding evidence slavery having an effect on current day conditions... Here is a study showing "the 1860 slave concentration is related to contemporary black-white inequality in poverty, independent of contemporary demographic and economic conditions, racialized wealth disparities and racial threat. [This] research suggests the importance of slavery for shaping existing U.S. racial inequality patterns."

Citation required. What is strange about this is that when you go looking, you don't see good studies that track people through generations and show that this is in fact the case.

The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks seems beyond dispute in my view. The words "very significant" could be disputed based on how we defined them, but that's a technicality. I'm honestly shocked to hear this idea challenged...

I've cited this study.

It's stated that "African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed." The study itself shows significant discrimination based on race in the beginning stages of the hiring process.

Lumifer seemed to accept the basic premise, but was nonetheless skeptical and too uninterested to look into the study. I'd be interested to know what you think.

Regardless, it is evidence that employers discriminate against blacks. And employment is tied to income...and wealth...and opportunity. And that is passed on generation after generation.

This idea "slavery is the cause" seems not to be an actual active idea but only functions as a thought terminating cliche. It could have been slavery so it was.

Again, it seems indisputable to me that slavery has an effect. Segregation and discrimination, too. I honestly don't understand how it couldn't. The only question that is left is in regard to the significance of the effect. And if there are other factors. I'd love to hear some of your evidence for other factors.

And as for this...

It reminds me of religious apologists talking about the problem of evil...

I strongly disagree. People being enslaved based on race for hundreds of years, segregated for a hundred more, and then discriminated against until the present day, and that leading to some problems within that race has zero, and I mean zero, to do with the concocted, magical-causal "explanations" of religion.

How about this...

Man A is freed from slavery at 40 with no skills, no education, no family and no professional or network.

Also at 40, man B has a small fortune, an education, is skilled in a trade, has a large family, a good reputation, and a wide network of business and social contacts.

Assuming the offspring of each man—A1 and B1—has identical DNA, which offspring has the highest probability of graduating from an elite university?

Which—A1 or B1—will be more likely to have a successful career?

Which will pass on the largest inheritance to A2 and B2?

Why?

And what do you expect to change in subsequent generations?

(One thing that could change are laws eliminating discrimination...)

People certainly have a bias towards those-like-me, but it's not specifically anti-black, it's against anyone who looks/feels/smells different.

It's debatable whether or not it's specifically anti-black. Or anti-some-other-group. At any rate, a bias against those-not-like-me would be sufficient in this case to cause blacks a significant deficit in opportunity for employment in a historically majority white nation.

Um, the IQ would be different?...

As usual, I phrased my comment poorly. Let me try a different tack...

You are saying black Americans have a genetic deficit in the form of lower average IQ. Because IQ is heritable and very important toward social "success", this is a (or even the?) major factor in why they lag behind in certain social metrics (avg. income/wealth, crime rates, etc.) in American society.

I'm saying slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks to overcome in America, to the extent that we would expect to see something like we see in terms of the disparity in avg. income/wealth, crime rates, etc. I'd hypothesize slavery/segregation/discrimination has been consequential to the extent that even if blacks had a higher average IQ than whites, they would still be in a similar situation. (i.e. the discrimination is that bad and that significant.)

Plainly, advanced IQ (or other genetic advantages) aren't enough to overcome significant discrimination in all cases. The disadvantages can be too steep in a given society.

I'd propose a good portion of the U.S. is a bit more racist than I think you are taking into consideration. And this may have caused a deeper deficit for blacks than you are appreciating.

As to similarities, I was about to write that the discriminated-against will never rise to the highest positions in the society, but oh look! there is that Barack Hussain fellow...

Things can change. Slowly.