Comment author: Antisuji 03 May 2011 07:12:45PM 1 point [-]

Consider hyperbolic discounting: grief now is far worse than grief later.

Also, in addition to shame there is anger and a sense of betrayal. See Jonathan Franzen's recent essay in the New Yorker on, among other things, David Foster Wallace's suicide.

Comment author: Broggly 03 May 2011 08:22:58PM 1 point [-]

I don't know whether DFW is different to the people I know who attempted or commited suicide, or if I'm different to Franzen, but I didn't feel those sorts of emotions when a friend killed herself or my dad was in hospital on a pill overdose. I've got depression and have occasional suicidal urges, so maybe I assume they're like me and were just suffering from anhedonia and pessimism about their future enjoyment of life rather than anything to do with people they know. I feel bad that I didn't realise and couldn't have tried to help in some way, but more in that I would rather it not have happened rather than feeling ashamed and betrayed.

Comment author: Broggly 03 May 2011 03:40:09PM 3 points [-]

When I saw the title, I thought this post would be about rationalist Phoenix Wright fanfiction. Quite possibly that would lead to Phoenix leading a campaign for legal reform due to their stupid "Three day trial, guilty until another is proven guilty, no chain of custody laws" legal system, or at least having that incompetent judge fired.

Comment author: Broggly 01 May 2011 07:47:43AM 1 point [-]

I would have a similar function, assuming that by "humanity" you mean beings with humane-ish values rather than just H. sapiens.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 February 2011 07:45:39AM *  4 points [-]

I'm personally wondering when Harry figures out that he's actually a fictional character :)

While it might be a bit too mind-screwy for MoR, I can't help but to think that it would be amazing if, say, Harry confronted Eliezer on allowing Azkaban to exist within his universe just so that the latter could have an interesting and important location to use in his story. Something like Non-Player Character. Omake opportunity, perhaps?

Comment author: Broggly 30 April 2011 10:07:48AM 4 points [-]

The obvious response is to include in the trigger warning a statement for any sufficiently advanced intelligence or humans with philosophical reservations about imagining other conscious beings that the story includes suffering, descriptions of suffering, and people reflecting on the suffering of others in detail.

Comment author: taryneast 30 January 2011 04:19:42PM 3 points [-]

You may wish to study the "terribly mysterious" sayings of The Sphinx (from the movie "Mystery Men") for inspiration :)

Comment author: Broggly 30 April 2011 07:45:36AM 7 points [-]

"When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack."

Comment author: quen_tin 30 March 2011 04:17:00PM 2 points [-]

Acid test (1) and (2): this is where dogma starts.

Comment author: Broggly 05 April 2011 12:48:02AM 0 points [-]

I get the problem with (2), although mostly because I haven't thought about quantum mechanics enough to have an opinion, but (1) is no more dogma than "DNA is transcribed to mRNA which is then translated as an amino acid sequence". There are lots of good reasons to investigate the actual likelihood of the null and alternative hypotheses rather than just assuming it's about 95% likely it's all just a coincidence Of course, until this becomes fairly standard doing so would mean turning your paper into a meta-analysis as well as the actual experiment, which is probably hard work and fairly boring.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 20 March 2011 02:39:43AM -1 points [-]

The problem I have with the concept of privilege, is that in practice it's used as a way to avoid responsibility and rationalize failure. And not to infrequently guilt trip those who have achieved success, your article's professions that invoking privilege is not about guilt notwithstanding.

Rationalist should win, not sit around whining that they lost because of bad luck/someone else's privilege..

Comment author: Broggly 20 March 2011 05:33:11PM 1 point [-]

Sometimes you win via trying to influence social mores such that a previously disadvantaged group is treated more fairly. Remember, "win" refers to your entire utility function which can include the wellbeing of others.

Comment author: gwern 15 March 2011 04:20:20PM 1 point [-]

Predictable, really. There's not much of a Hollywood movie story in 'guy takes a pill and becomes really really awesome. The End.'

Comment author: Broggly 15 March 2011 04:38:24PM 3 points [-]

Wait, so they're not making the Captain America movie now?

Comment author: Raemon 11 March 2011 03:01:31AM 0 points [-]

Is your last sentence missing something? It feels incomplete.

Comment author: Broggly 11 March 2011 01:15:14PM 0 points [-]

Ah yes, I meant to type that you only have the moral authority to condemn copies to torture or slavery if they're actually you, and it's pretty stupid to risk almost certain torture for a small chance of a moderate benefit

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 09 March 2011 03:44:14PM 22 points [-]

Assuming that this is mostly about persuading him to save himself by participating in cryonics (is that "the cause" for which he might be "an asset"?):

Your father may be fortunate to have so many informed people trying to change his mind about this. Not one person in a million has that.

He's also already scientifically informed to a rare degree - relative to the average person - so it's not as if he needs to hear arguments about nanobots and so forth.

So this has nothing to do with science, it's about sensibility and philosophy of life.

Many middle-aged people have seen most of their dreams crushed by life. They will also be somewhere along the path of physical decline leading to death, despite their best efforts. All this has a way of hollowing out a person, and making the individual life appear futile.

Items 1 and 2 on your father's list are the sort of consolations which may prove appealing to an intellectual, scientifically literate atheist, when contemplating possible attitudes towards life. Many such people, having faced some mix of success and failure in life, and looking ahead to personal oblivion (or, as they may see it, the great unknown of death), will find it a relief to abandon hope, and to broaden their awareness beyond their private desires, to the sweep of history or the vastness of the universe.

This impersonal perspective may function as a source of calm and lucidity, and to have you urging them to abandon their resignation and grasp for more life may seem like someone asking them to rush back into the cage of self-involved personal desire and occlude their hard-won awareness of reality in favor of optimistic delusion.

Also, they may simply find life boring or wearisome. Parents may endure mostly for the sake of their children, long past the age when the child supposedly grows up and leaves home. There may be far less joie de vivre there than a younger person could imagine; they may simply be going through the motions of life, having established some routine that leaves them as much space as possible after the turmoil of a youth in which they first came into bruising contact with the demands and limitations of life; and they may be kept alive more by habit than by the desire to live.

I know nothing about your father, so all that is just meant to suggest possibilities. I'll mention one other factor, which is the story a person tells themselves about their own destiny. One person's power is so limited, that simply choosing the broad direction of one's own life is often a struggle and an accomplishment; I would even say it's rare for a person to understand what their own life is about, and what's going on in it, in a more than superficial way. A phase of life is usually understood afterwards, if at all. The powerlessness of the human individual, the sense that one's time is running out, the impositions of the external world, all of this combines with everything I mentioned earlier to favor either passivity (stop trying, roll with the punches) or stubbornness, including intellectual stubbornness (at least I can live and think as I've already decided; at least I have that freedom and that power).

In persuading him to consider cryonics as a worthy activity, I would wager that something like all that is really what you have to deal with - though of course he also has a point when he asks whether making a copy is the same thing as surviving. I am young enough, and my estimation of the rate of change is rapid enough, that I mostly think in terms of rejuvenation, rather than cryonic suspension, as my path to an open future. It remains to be seen if I will ever bother making arrangements to be frozen.

Anyway, I would suggest two practical steps. One is to think together about the logistics, financial and otherwise, that would be required if he was to sign up for cryonics. How much would it cost, is there an opportunity cost, what would the physical process be if he died now and was shipped off to suspension. The point of such discussion is to explore what difference it would make to his existing life to take this step.

The other is to think about the further future if you both were to live to see it. Perhaps it's unfortunate that we don't have a Star Trek-like TV series in which the spacefaring 22nd century is full of youthful survivors from the 20th century who happened to be last until the age of advanced nanobiotechnology; it would encourage more people to take the future personally. Anyway, the key is to try to be realistic. Don't imagine the future to be some sort of wish-fulfilment video game; try to think of it as history that hasn't happened yet. On the day-to-day level, life is full of repetition, but in modern times, even just on a scale of decades, we also see catastrophe and transformation. Try to think of the future as a series of crises and triumphs continuous with the historical stages we already have behind us, and which you might manage to personally live through. This is a way to tap into the belated wisdom and sense of reality which comes from having lived a few decades as an adult, without entirely easing back into the spectator's armchair of death.

I can't tell from your post if he's actually dying right now, or if it's just that he's older than you and so notionally closer to death. This line of thought, about staying in the game of life for a few more decades, is more suited to awakening someone's sense of personal agency with respect to the future. If he's dying right now, then it probably does come down to a debate about personal identity.

Comment author: Broggly 11 March 2011 05:20:03AM 0 points [-]

What about Futurama? Or is that not suitable because, as a comedy, it's more cynical and brings up both the way the future would be somewhat disturbing for us and that it's likely our descendents would be more interested in only reviving famous historical figures and sticking their heads in museums.

The comic Transmetropolitan also brings up the issue of cryogenics "revivals" effectively being confined to nursing homes out of our total shock at the weirdness of the future and inability to cope. It's an interesting series for transhumanists, given that it has people uploading themselves into swarms of nanobots, and the idea of a small "preseve" for techno-libertarians to generate whatever technologies they want ("The hell was that?" "It's the local news, sent directly to your brain via nanopollen!" "Wasn't that banned when it was found to build up in the synapses and cause alzheimer's?" "We think we've ironed out the bugs...")

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