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Billy has the chance to study abroad in Australia for a year, and he's so mixed up about it, he can barely think straight.
Outside View - can anyone imagine a satisfying ending to this story that doesn't have Billy going to Australia?
In response to
Seven Shiny Stories
Yes; it involves Billy studying in some place other than Australia (perhaps continuing with his home institution, perhaps getting an opportunity to go study in France and picking that one instead)
How do you misunderstand christianity if you say to people: "There is no evidence of any talking snakes, so it's best to reject any ideas that hinges on there existing talking snakes"?
Again, I'm not saying that this is usually a good argument. I'm saying that those who make it present a logically valid case (which is not the case with the monkey-birthing-human-argument) and that those who not accept it, but believe it to be correct, does so because they feel it isn't enough to convince others in their group that it is a good enough argument.
I'm also trying to make a distinction between "culturally silly" and "scientifically silly". Talking snakes are scientifically silly and sometimes culturally silly.
How do you misunderstand christianity if you say to people: "There is no evidence of any talking snakes, so it's best to reject any ideas that hinges on there existing talking snakes"?
The misunderstanding is that Christianity doesn't hinge on the existence of talking snakes, any more than evolution hinges on monkeys giving birth to humans. The error in logic is the same in both arguments.
In response to
Three Worlds Collide (0/8)
Actually I am nearly completely on the side of the Super Happies on this one. It is not as if the humans are moral with rape legalized. I'd support the Happies provided: 1. The utility function will not diverge from the goals of a) spreading truth, and eliminating delusion, b) spreading happiness, and eliminating suffering, c) growing, and not dying. With the negative statements taking precedence over the positive ones. 2. That accordingly the babies they will eat to accommodate the Baby Eaters are not only not sentient, but also incapable of suffering of any kind. I.e. have the moral status of a rock. 3. That a negative behaviour feedback is available for things like putting hands on stoves. A painless equivalent needs to be available to prevent anti-utility behaviour.
So, in short I kind of have to admit I dislike both endings.
I think an important part of what makes their ending so terrifying is that you don't get to make those stipulations. Or any other stipulations. The Superhappies may or may not follow them, that's their choice - you just don't get any say, one way or the other.
which you will notice has "accuse" as well as "excuse".
I would interpret "accuse" to mean "they claim they are violating the law because they don't know better, but itheir thoughts show that hey really do know better"--not to mean "they believe something is a law and if so they will be punished for not following the nonexistent law".
But doing so completely breaks your criticism, doesn't it?
No, the criticism is that either
- God punishes people for things they can't reasonably be expected to avoid (like non-Christians who don't follow Christian commands), or
- God doesn't punish people for things they can't reasonably be expected to avoid, in which case the best thing to do is make sure people don't know about Christianity.
1 is bad because people are punished for something that isn't their fault; 2 would blatantly contradict what Christians think is good.
This doesn't depend on the punishment being infinite or eternal.
1 is bad because people are punished for something that isn't their fault; 2 would blatantly contradict what Christians think is good.
Hmmmm. Here's a third option; the punishment for a sin committed in ignorance is a lot lighter than the punishment for a sin committed deliberately. "A lot lighter" implies neither infinite nor eternal; merely a firm hint that that is not the way to go about things.
In this case, letting people know what the rules are will save them a lot of trouble (and trial-and-error) along the way.
I'm observing someone else's position
My observations do not yield the same results as yours.
seems to mean
How can you tell? Usually the question just isn't brought up. I mean, usually what happens is that someone says "isn't it unfair for people to be damned on account of mere ignorance?" and someone else responds: yeah, it would be, but actually that doesn't happen because those people will be judged in some unknown fashion according to their consciences. And generally the details of exactly how that works are acknowledged to be unknown, so there's not much more to say.
But for what it's worth, the nearest thing to a statement of this idea in the actual Bible, which comes in the Letter to the Romans, says this:
They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them
(emphasis mine) which you will notice has "accuse" as well as "excuse".
This doesn't explicitly address the question of what happens if that conscience is bearing false witness and the wrong law is written in their hearts; again, that question tends not to come up in these discussions.
Just replace "Hell" with "Hell or Purgatory"
But doing so completely breaks your criticism, doesn't it? Because Purgatory comes in degrees, or at least in variable terms, and falls far short of hell in awfulness. So, in those Christians' view, God has a wide range of punishments available that are much milder than eternal damnation. (Though some believers in Purgatory would claim it isn't exactly punishment.)
I have also heard, from Protestants, the idea that although you can escape damnation no matter how wicked a life you lead and attain eternal felicity, there may be different degrees of that eternal felicity on offer. So it isn't only Catholics who have possible sanctions for bad behaviour even for the saved.
(This seems like a good point at which to reiterate that although I'm kinda-sorta defending Christians here, I happen not to be among their number and think what most of them say about salvation and damnation is horrible morally, incoherent logically, or both.)
But for what it's worth, the nearest thing to a statement of this idea in the actual Bible, which comes in the Letter to the Romans, says this:
I've found a few other passages that seem to have a bearing on this question.
Luke 12:47-48 states:
47 “The servant who knows what his master wants but is not ready, or who does not do what the master wants, will be beaten with many blows! 48 But the servant who does not know what his master wants and does things that should be punished will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded. And from the one trusted with much, much more will be expected.
...which implies that, while there is a punishment for sin committed in ignorance, it is far less than that for sin committed knowingly.
(Proverbs 24:12 also seems relevant; and there's a lot of probably-at-least-slightly relevant passages linked from here).
it's perfectly in order to say "those ideas are certainly Christian ideas, but they are not the only Christian ideas and most Christians disagree with them".
I think CCC is trying to say that those aren't Christian ideas at all and that people who think that that's what Christianity is like are mistaken, not just choosing a smaller group of Christians over a larger one.
It sounds as if you're assuming that improved understanding of Christianity always means discovering more things you're supposed to do. But it could go the other way too
It isn't "you do the exact set of things described by your mistaken understanding of Christianity, and you are saved". It's "imperfect understanding is an excuse for failing to meet the requirement". Improved understanding can only increase the things you must do, never reduce it. In other words, if you falsely think that Christianity requires being a vegetarian, and you fail to be a vegetarian (thus violating your mistaken understanding of it, but not actually violating true Christianity), you can still be saved.
But that's not the same as being able to think of plenty of things Christianity says you have to do, on pain of damnation.
Everything that Christianity says you should do, is under pain of damnation (or has no penalty at all). It's not as if God has some other punishment short of damnation that he administers instead when your sin is mild.
Everything that Christianity says you should do, is under pain of damnation (or has no penalty at all). It's not as if God has some other punishment short of damnation that he administers instead when your sin is mild.
There are plenty of punishments short of eternal damnation that an omnipotent being can hand out.
From here:
Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati);
A lot of them have heard (and believe) things about it that are false
They didn't get them from thin air. They got them from Christians. This amounts to a no true Scotsman defense--all the things all those other Christians say, they aren't true Christianity.
It is quite possible that a large number of people...in pursuit of the truth, reject what they have heard of Christianity and try to do what is right.
If that counts as being ignorant, the same problem arises: It's better to be ignorant than knowledgeable.
What "more" do you think one should be doing with a better understanding of Christianity?
Christianity says you should do X. If you are only required to follow Christianity to your best understanding to be saved, and you don't understand Christianity as requiring X, you don't have to do X to be saved. But once you really understand that Christianity requires you to do X, then all of a sudden you better do X. Following it to the best of your understanding means that the more you understand, the more you have to do.
And I'm sure you can think of plenty of things which Christianity tells you to do. It's not as if examples are particularly scarce.
I don't think that God is malevolent.
The way God is described by Christians looks just like malevolence. If God really saves people who follow Christianity to the best of their understanding, without loopholes like "maybe he will save them but maybe he won't so becoming more Christian is a safer bet", Christians wouldn't proselytize.
They didn't get them from thin air. They got them from Christians. This amounts to a no true Scotsman defense--all the things all those other Christians say, they aren't true Christianity.
You make an excellent point. There are a number of things being proposed by groups that call themselves Christian, often in the honest belief that they are right to propose such things (and to do so enthusiastically), which I nonetheless find myself in firm disagreement with. (For example, creationism).
To avoid the fallacy, then, and to deal with such contradictions, I shall define more narrowly what I consider "true Christianity", and I shall define it as Roman Catholicism (or something sufficiently close to it).
Christianity says you should do X. If you are only required to follow Christianity to your best understanding to be saved, and you don't understand Christianity as requiring X, you don't have to do X to be saved. But once you really understand that Christianity requires you to do X, then all of a sudden you better do X. Following it to the best of your understanding means that the more you understand, the more you have to do.
And I'm sure you can think of plenty of things which Christianity tells you to do. It's not as if examples are particularly scarce.
One example of X that I can think of, off the top of my head, is "going to Church on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation".
It is true that one who does want to be a good Christian will need to go to Church, while one who is ignorant will also be ignorant of that requirement. Hmmmm. So you have a clear point, there.
The way God is described by Christians looks just like malevolence. If God really saves people who follow Christianity to the best of their understanding, without loopholes like "maybe he will save them but maybe he won't so becoming more Christian is a safer bet", Christians wouldn't proselytize.
I think that one reasonable analogy is that it's a bit like writing an exam at university. Sure, you can self-study and still ace the test, but your odds are a lot better if you attend the lectures. And trying to invite others to attend the lectures improves their odds of passing, as well.
No, that is not the case.
Sorry for that accusation, it was caused by your phrasing which (to me) sounded suggestive of indignation, and following the scheme often found in unpleasant arguments, i.e. repeating someone's words (or misinterpreted words) in a loud-angry-questioning tone. As a suggestion, remember that this way of phrasing questions can be misunderstood?
I apologise for my error.
Nothing happened that requires apologies :) It's cool :)
As a suggestion, remember that this way of phrasing questions can be misunderstood?
I shall try to bear that in mind in the future. Tonal information is stripped from plain-text communication, and will be guessed (possibly erroneously) by the reader.
(I knew that already, actually, but it's not an easy lesson to always remember)
At best, that means that trying to do the right thing counts if you're ignorant of Christianity. Most people aren't ignorant of Christianity, and rampant proselytization makes things much worse since with more people who have heard of Christianity, fewer can use that escape clause.
In fact, it doesn't just apply to knowing Christianity's existence. The more you understand Christianity, according to that, the more you have to do to be saved.
And even then, it has loopholes you can drive a truck through. "Can be saved", not "will be saved"--it's entirely consistent with that statement for God not to save anyone.
At best, that means that trying to do the right thing counts if you're ignorant of Christianity. Most people aren't ignorant of Christianity, and rampant proselytization makes things much worse since with more people who have heard of Christianity, fewer can use that escape clause.
I disagree. Most people are ignorant of Christianity.
I don't mean that most people haven't heard of it. Most people have. A lot of them have heard (and believe) things about it that are false; or have merely heard of it but no more; or, worse yet, have only heard of some splinter Protestant groups and assumed that all Christians agree with them.
It is quite possible that a large number of people, hearing of the famous Creationism/Evolution debate, believe that Christianity and Science are irreconcilable and thus, in pursuit of the truth, reject what they have heard of Christianity and try to do what is right. This, to my understanding, fits perfectly in to being a person who "is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it".
In fact, it doesn't just apply to knowing Christianity's existence. The more you understand Christianity, according to that, the more you have to do to be saved.
I don't see how that follows. Seeking the truth and doing God's will in accordance with your best understanding thereof seems to be what everyone should be doing. What "more" do you think one should be doing with a better understanding of Christianity?
And even then, it has loopholes you can drive a truck through. "Can be saved", not "will be saved"--it's entirely consistent with that statement for God not to save anyone.
That is true. If God were malevolent, opposed to saving people, then He could use those loopholes.
I don't think that God is malevolent.
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I think that the best works of fiction incorporate both Starfish aliens and Rubber-Forehead aliens. One mustn't discard the possibility that other intelligences might evolve in a fashion analogous to us, but rather incorporate the knowledge that we cannot foresee every possible form thereof.
For logical consistency, if there are both rubber-forehead and starfish aliens, then the starfish aliens should be separable into groups, such that all species in any given group are rubber-forehead aliens relative to each other. Instead of (say) three sets of rubber-forehead aliens and three sets of starfish aliens that are starfishes to each other as well, it seems more reasonable to have three sets of rubber-forehead aliens and a number of similar clusters of (approximately) four species each consisting of remarkable similar starfish aliens. (If they're starfish enough, then humans might be unable to differentiate between their species, and that's fine too. They might have just as much difficulty telling humans and ferengi apart, after all.)