Comment author: CarlJ 23 July 2013 01:25:32PM 0 points [-]

Some time last night (European time) my Karma score dropped below 2, so I can't finish the series here. I'll continue on my blog instead, for those interested.

Comment author: BlindIdiotPoster 22 July 2013 11:26:03PM 1 point [-]

If you do finish the series, and manage to insightfuly and productively discuss the topics you outlined, Ill change my downvote to an upvote.

Comment author: CarlJ 23 July 2013 08:55:04AM *  0 points [-]

Unfortunately, my Karma score went below 2 last night (the threshold to be able to post new articles). This might be due to a mistake I made when deciding what facts to discuss in my latest post - it was unnecessary to bring up my own views, I should have picked some random observations. But even if I hadn't posted that article, my score would still be too low, from all the negative reviews on this post. Or from the third post.

In any case, I'll finish the posts on my blog.

Comment author: gothgirl420666 22 July 2013 04:00:11PM 0 points [-]

Politics is sometimes hard to discuss. Partly since most of us seem to unconsciously take political matters with the same degree of seriousness as our forefathers used to, because we use the same mode of thought as they used to. Back then, a bad political choice or alliance, could mean death, while the normal cost today in a democratic society might be ridicule for having supported the losing team or position.

I know this isn't that relevant to your post, but I kind of think the evo-psych explanation for why people care about politics is really stupid.

Here's a better explanation:

  • In America, if you do not vote, you're considered a bad person.
  • If you vote without being knowledgable about the issues and having a coherent political belief system, you are considered a bad person.
  • Therefore, if you aren't knowledgable about political issues or don't have a coherent political belief system, you are considered a bad person.

Or here's another one: when something is on the news a lot, people will care about it even if it doesn't affect them at all and isn't really inherently interesting (the royal wedding, the Casey Anthony trial, celebrity gossip). Politics is probably the topic most heavily featured on the news. Therefore lots of people will care about it.

Comment author: CarlJ 23 July 2013 06:43:41AM 0 points [-]

The explanation isn't for why people care about politics per se, but that we care so deeply for politics that we respond to adversity much, much harsher in political environments than in others. Or, our reactions are disproportionate to the actual risks involved in it. People become angry when discussing if something should be privatized or if taxes should be raised. If one believes that there is some general policies that most benefit from, it's really bad to become angry at those whom you really should be allies with.

That's different from what I'm used to here in Sweden. For most people here it's accepted to not vote - if you put a blank vote in the ballot box. Even though most vote (more than 80%) it's not considered bad to not have a political opinion, you can just say you don't understand enough. In the bad all old days it seems that there was something of a taboo to ask others what they voted for, which made it easy to skip discussing politics.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 July 2013 11:40:52AM 0 points [-]

The goal of this sequence is to create a model with enables one to think more rationally regarding political questions. Or, maybe, societal questions (since I maybe am using the word politics too broadly for most here). The intention was to create a better tool of thought.

I don't think it succeeds. Rationally regarding political questions is about seeing shades of gray.

You basically argue for a idealistic liberatian view of politics which is hold in history mainly by people who don't win any political conflicts.

Comment author: CarlJ 22 July 2013 09:17:01PM -1 points [-]

I don't think that the idealistic-pragmatist divide is that great, but if I should place myself in either camp, then it's the latter. From my perspective this model would not, if followed through, suggest to do anything that will not have a positive impact (from one's own perspective).

Comment author: Rukifellth 22 July 2013 12:48:54AM *  1 point [-]

Yes, but I owe you an apology for bringing economics up. I fell for some cognitive bias or other when remembering the number of ecnomics posts- Stuart Armstrong's is the only one in recent months where economics was the end and not a mean to some other discussion.

Basically, everyone on this board has made a pre-committment to not expend energy on politics. You'll definitely need a sequence post on the benefits of political thought as a general concept, before any posts about how to think politics properly. Why before how.

Comment author: CarlJ 22 July 2013 09:00:54PM 0 points [-]

I believe I should be able both to show how to think on politics and then use that structure to show that some political action is preferable to none - and by my definition work on EA and AI are, for those methods I mention above, political question.

I do have a short answer to the question of why to engage in politics. But it will be expanded in time.

Consider the Most Important Facts

-9 CarlJ 22 July 2013 08:39PM

Followup to: Choose that which is most important to you

When you have written down what your own fundamental political values are, the next step is to get an understanding of all possible societies so you can see which one is best. And by best I mean that society which comes closest to meeting your criteria of what you find most valuable.

So, to construct a model for thinking about this issue two things are needed. First, a list of all possible societies. And then some lists of those facts which would seem to rule out the largest number of possible societies as not being best; it would close in on the best society. The important point for this post regards the second list, but I still have a little discussion on the scope of the first list. If it seems obvious to, more or less, look at variants of economic systems, you can skip the next section and go straight to Facts which rule out and points toward certain societies.

A list of all possible societies – How long and exhaustive should it be?
I don't know if anyone has made such an exhaustive list. One might be constructed if one takes the list of economic systems (which regards laws, institutions, and how they are produced, and some culture) from Wikipedia and imagines that each of those systems may vary somewhat by different cultural norms. Not all cultural norms are compatible with every economic systems (objectivist virtue ethics with central planning), but every system would seem to allow some variation.This means 54 broad economic systems with, let's just say, ten broad cultural variations of these. So there's approximately 500 types of societies that people discuss today to take into account.

There's an obvious limitation to all this, which is that for every type of system, that system may vary in five million ways regarding certain laws. So, the Nordic model have changed a lot during the last 25 years. And if you take each law and consider a society of this type to be able to switch that on or off, there's, from that period alone, enough laws to be changed that the total combination exceeds five million. Many of the laws are however interdependent on one another, but there's still room for enormous configuration to ”construct” different societies.

So, maybe there are around a billion to a trillion possible societies. Now, it seems obviously clear that it is wrong to start discussing what, of two quite similar possible societies are better than the other – even if each society can have one million variations.1 That is because each are highly unlikely to be the best society.

If we can make one assumption, this will be much more easy. And that is that societies which we today would consider to be more similar than others would produce more or less the same results relative to other societies. There are some areas where every society would change drastically with just a small change in that area since it would lead to drastic change in the rest of the society. These areas are of great importance when we come to changing systems, but for now I assume these areas are too few in number to be of any importance.

With this assumption we can return to look at broad systems, because if societies of one category would seem to be better than other societies, we do not need to look more closely at that sort of society. If one type of mercantilistic society looks bad compared to a free-trade economy, any other type of the former are not worth looking at again.

Again, societies have these fundamental attributes (i) some general rules regarding how their laws are structured, (ii) some definitive rules on how these rules should be changed, and (iii) cultural norms. This model is still somewhat limiting, however. It seems to assume that a society can only have only one law and so on. But that problem disappears if we assume they can be different for different time, places and people. In all, this means we're back to some 500 possible societies.

Facts which rule out and points toward certain societies
Before considering any facts that has an impact on how you view a society, all societies should appear to be equally probable of being the best. This starting point may seem strange to some. It means that one should not dismiss even the policies of Nazi Germany out of hand. That is just the starting point however. After one accumulates more and more data some societies will appear less and less probable to be on that best fulfill your criteria.

But, since you don't have time to read everything, it is necessary to construct a model of how humans (and other beings, for post-singularity issues2) function and interact, that first only considers the most important facts. This could be done in several ways.

One could begin by just following normal science and ask what general facts can explain most of observed behavior and then see what those facts would predict about all societies. That seems wise to do, in and of itself, because it forces the discussion (which will ensue with others who follow the same method) to be very methodical and well grounded in a rich theory. This can be called the general method.

But this path is not the quickest, since these general facts would probably not damn enough societies to be unsuitable to your goals. A much faster way, but which will paint a more sketchy painting, is to just list those facts which will rule out the most societies. This is quicker since it will go straight to the chase. These facts may be thought of by thinking on what assumptions certain systems rely on to work adequately and trying to figure out what facts disprove most of these assumptions. This can be called the specific method.

Then there are statements which you are uncertain about but if they were true, it would become really obvious what society is best. So, not facts actually, but those ideas which you believe are worth learning more about. These potential facts should be the ones you are pondering or those which are the root cause of many debates among those with similar goals. This can be called the search method.

Here's an illustration of all three methods. Except for the last illustration, I write my own views, but these are not my own most important facts but the 11th to 20th.

The general method:

  1. People tend to conform to popular opinion.
  2. Societies become wealthier with extended markets, more savings, gaining better knowledge, producing more advanced technology, peace, and institutions which support these activities.
  3. Man is not a perfectly rational creature but has the possibility to correct his mistakes
  4. To wield power over others one generally need superior military strength.
  5. Most people fear being ostracised.
  6. Ideologies are usually formed by the social structure, and the social structure can be changed by those ideologies.
  7. People tend to enjoy the company of those who they are similar to.
  8. On markets with freedom of entry, prices for reproducible goods tends to be as low as their cost of production.
  9. Producers who don't sell what the customers want tend to receive lower earnings.
  10. Most people are adept at spotting others mistakes, but do quite poorly on noticing their own.

The specific method:

  1. All or almost all states today have tariffs to protect a certain industry or firm from competition.
  2. Generally, to know for sure if one possible society is better than another, one must be able to discuss their respective merits and demerits.
  3. The leaders of large governments tend to have less incentive to produce collective goods, rather than private goods, relative to leaders of smaller states.
  4. Most people today in democratic states give in to pressure to support policies which they are unable to know if they actually are for their own good or not.
  5. Children can be indoctrinated to glorify mass-murderers and to want to join them as soldiers, asking nothing about the justice of their cause.
  6. People are disposed to believe that the society they grow up in is good.
  7. Most people are conservative; they dislike change.
  8. All centrally planned economies perform less well than market based economic systems.
  9. Firms tend to invest money in rent-seeking if it's profitable until the expected return is similar to normal investments.
  10. Generally, it's difficult for new facts to overturn one's ideology without a contrasting ideology and it is difficult to come up with a new one by oneself.

The search method:

  1. Political system X will best achieve my goals.
  2. Political system X leads to the best incentives for everyone to produce the most important collective goods.

Now, these facts are not simply facts. They are the tip of a theoretical ice-berg; they are interpretation of reality. As such they will not by themselves explicate what system they damn. For oneself they should be clear what they mean, but if one should discuss it with others it might be necessary to write down the points and their theoretical point of view explicitly.

In any case, if you've followed my steps you should have one candidate which seems to be best. This step might, of course, take years, but if you're confident you should next estimate how much a political action towards these societies might cost.

Notes
[1] It might seem that I'd imply that that is what most people do today when they discuss politics – which, by its nature, is usually limited to tweaking the existing system one small way here and there, instead of looking at larger changes to be made. That implication is tempting to make, but most people seem to be more engaged in a ideological debate. I'd guess, anyway – I do not know for sure.

[2] They are too hard to predict so I'll skip discussing them.

Comment author: ModusPonies 21 July 2013 06:48:34PM 13 points [-]

Without commenting on the subject, I'll say that I have a policy of downvoting contentless introduction posts that promise a lengthy forcoming sequence. These projects usually peter out after 2-3 posts, leaving the bulk of the work undone.

Comment author: CarlJ 22 July 2013 07:12:04PM *  -1 points [-]

I would beg to differ, as to this post not having any content. It affirms that politics is difficult to talk about; that there's a psychological reason for that; that politics has a large impact on our lives; that a rational perspective on politics requires that one can answer certain questions; that the answer to these questions can be called a political ideology and that such ideologies should be constructed in a certain way. You may not like this way of introducing a subject - by giving a brief picture of what it's all about - but that's another story.

I will finish posting this series. I have already written an almost complete version of them, so what's missing is mainly coming up with a few facts/perspectives for some of the posts. Hopefully I'm finished by, thursday.

Comment author: DanielLC 22 July 2013 12:29:53AM 6 points [-]

With that in mind, you should now list all the things you value in ranking order.

If you rank your goals, so that any amount of the first goal is better than any amount of the second goal etc., you might as well just ignore all but the first goal. What you need to do is figure out how much of each goal is equivalent. For example, the happiness the average person feels in a year equals the amount of beauty in Beethoven's ninth symphony equals etc. If this is the case, neither happiness nor beauty is more important, but a given amount of happiness may be more important than a given amount of beauty or vice versa.

Comment author: CarlJ 22 July 2013 09:58:33AM *  0 points [-]

I agree with your second point, that one should be able to determine the value of incremental steps towards goal A in relation to incremental steps towards goal B, and every other goal, and vice versa. I will fix that, thanks for bringing it up!

If you rank your goals, so that any amount of the first goal is better than any amount of the second goal etc., you might as >well just ignore all but the first goal.

Ranking does not imply that. It only implies that I prefer one goal over another, not that coming 3% on the way to reaching that goal is more preferable to reaching 95% of the other. I prefer 0.5 litres strawberries to one honeydew melon for dessert. But I also prefer one half of a melon to one strawberry.

Comment author: Rukifellth 21 July 2013 11:12:11PM *  -1 points [-]

I have no link, but there's a significant number of posts about economic science for a community of non business persons. I guess behind-the-scenes economy fixing is differentiated from efficient charity by its scale, rather than anything fundamental.

So you mean that this politics sequence is intended to augment the quest for AI, efficient charity and/or economy fixing?

Comment author: CarlJ 21 July 2013 11:36:43PM 0 points [-]

Hm, so economy fixing is like trying to make the markets function better? Such as when Robert Shiller created a futures market for house loans, which helped to show that people invested too much in housing?

No, that was not part of my intentions when I thought of this. But I'd guess that they would be or it won't be used by anyone.

The goal of this sequence is to create a model with enables one to think more rationally regarding political questions. Or, maybe, societal questions (since I maybe am using the word politics too broadly for most here). The intention was to create a better tool of thought.

Comment author: Rukifellth 21 July 2013 09:56:11PM *  0 points [-]

I don't know about a politics sequence. The idea of change which is held by most people here is through either an AI, efficient charity, or behind-the-scenes economy fixing. Before going much further it may be best to explain why politics is better than at least one of these things.

Comment author: CarlJ 21 July 2013 11:01:37PM 1 point [-]

The way I see it, all of these - especially the last point, which sounds unfamiliar, do you have a link? - are potentially political activities. Raising funds for AI or some effective charity is a political action, as I've defined it. The model I'm building in this sequence doesn't necessarily say that it's best to engage in normal political campaigns or even to vote. It is a framework to create one's own ideology. And as such it doesn't prescribe any course of action, but what you put into it will.

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