Comment author: Lumifer 04 April 2014 05:28:29PM 1 point [-]

There can be damage or defects in the mitochondria that inhibit it's ability to respond to hormones, for example per-oxidation of cardiolipin. Cells don't always die when they have a mitochondrial defect.

Sure, but what's the prevalence of this kind of problems? Sugar and/or glucose can cause problems in a significant chunk of population, maybe even the majority. Are you saying all these people have damaged mitochondria?

Comment author: CasioTheSane 04 April 2014 05:39:45PM 1 point [-]

I need to learn more about this, I don't have a strong belief. If I understand correctly, this is basically the idea behind the free radical theory of aging (FRTA). One interesting variant of that idea is in the article I linked above, which suggests that the focus should be on "mitochondrial membrane peroxidizability index" rather than antioxidant activity or free radical production.

It seems weird that sugar seems to cause problems in certain populations of people, but not others.

Comment author: Lumifer 04 April 2014 03:07:19PM *  3 points [-]

Perhaps sugar and glucose only cause problems in those who can't metabolize it effectively

What do you mean by "metabolize effectively"? People who have problems with metabolizing glucose are usually known as "dead" and things like insulin resistance are a problem with signalling, not a problem with cells' aerobic metabolism.

I used to think high glucose intake caused metabolic syndrome but I can't reconcile that with the existence of large groups of people (Kitavans, fruitarianism, etc.) that have very high carb diets and don't develop metabolic syndrome.

The metabolic syndrome is clearly multi-factor, there is no single cause we can point to. I am not sure PUFAs (or fructose) are the magic ingredient either, and it looks quite likely that the amount of physical exercise plays a fairly major role in all this -- but the whole thing is pretty messy at the moment. Sorting out all the causal connections leading to the metabolic syndrome is probably Nobel material :-/

Comment author: CasioTheSane 04 April 2014 05:11:16PM *  0 points [-]

There can be damage or defects in the mitochondria that inhibit it's ability to respond to hormones, for example per-oxidation of cardiolipin. Cells don't always die when they have a mitochondrial defect. An extreme example is cancer, where there is major damage to the mitochondria, but the cells continue to live via anaerobic fermentation (aka the Warburg Effect).

Some review articles that talk about these theories:

Cancer as a metabolic disease: implications for novel therapeutics

Life and Death: Metabolic Rate, Membrane Composition, and Life Span of Animals

Role of cardiolipin peroxidation and Ca2+ in mitochondrial dysfunction and disease

Comment author: Lumifer 04 April 2014 01:25:04AM 4 points [-]

suggested consuming foods high in glucose the other day when I was complaining about being tired, and that actually seemed to work pretty well.

If you're getting hypoglycemic, sugar will certainly help and sugar highs are real. However I don't think this is a good idea long-term as there is considerable amount of evidence that eating a lot of refined carbs tends to lead to a variety of unpleasant diseases, most prominently the metabolic syndrome.

Comment author: CasioTheSane 04 April 2014 06:51:26AM *  1 point [-]

Perhaps sugar and glucose only cause problems in those who can't metabolize it effectively, for other reasons (or when consumed in excess of your capacity to metabolize them). I used to think high glucose intake caused metabolic syndrome but I can't reconcile that with the existence of large groups of people (Kitavans, fruitarianism, etc.) that have very high carb diets and don't develop metabolic syndrome.

In mice, high sugar diets don't cause metabolic problems or liver damage unless also coupled with high polyunsaturated fat intake. Populations of people with high carbohydrate diets and no metabolic syndrome seem to have very low polyunsaturated fat intake. Could carb restriction protect against the symptoms of metabolic disease, without addressing the underlying cause?

Fructose seems to increase T3 production in the liver, which could be a mechanism behind the sugar high. I am not sure if this is "good" or "bad."

Comment author: CellBioGuy 04 April 2014 05:26:56AM *  17 points [-]

I was going to comment upon the comment you made in another post about Gilbert Ling. I'd never heard of them or their ideas and had to go looking the other night. As a result I now know why I never did.

I am extremely tired right now and in the middle of preparing for my thesis committee meeting, so I cannot give this the attention it deserves right now. Come back in a day or three and I will either expand this reply or make another one.

For now:

*From what I've seen, Ling's ideas seem to originally be based upon a few equivocal experiments from the sixties and seventies that have since been contradicted by just about all cellular electrophysiology, enzymology, and membrane biology known.

*All the odd results they point to about ion balance requiring too much energy to be accounted for via active-transport ion pumps in the membrane have been solved to my satisfaction by more recent work, especially in neurons, and all their talk about cells with compromised membranes maintaining ion balance seem like they can be explained by work on calcium-triggered membrane vesicle fusion from the nineties.

*This proposed role for ATP in unwinding proteins is experimentally unsupported by any good sources I can find, I fail to understand why it would be better for this purpose than just phosphate laying around the cell, and I use ATP nearly literally nearly every day to drive enzymes via hydrolysis. The ability of enzymes and channel proteins to couple its hydrolysis to all kinds of processes is not and never has been in doubt.

*Ion gradients established via membrane pumps are well-established as an energy source (or sink) in biology from the classic rotary ATPase that pumps protons across the bacterial membrane while breaking down ATP (with the proton gradient then driving flagellar motion in bacteria as it leaks back in through another rotary setup attached to the fiber and various transport systems), to the role of calcium as a signaling molecule that is sequestered out of the cytosol by active ion-specific pumps that can be poisoned, to the existence of channel proteins in our blood that form part of our innate immune system which exert their killing effect on bacteria by forming large nonspecific channels in their membranes that allow ions to leak across their gradient.

*Most of their writing that I did see in my hour of poking around contains incredulity about the very idea of powered channels being able to do what we know, experimentally, they do, along with some very elementary misunderstandings of molecular biology and evolution.

*The evidence for ordered water more extensive than hydration shells around proteins is not very good, and there is actually very interesting and productive research going on into protein hydration - I interviewed with and almost worked for a guy at Indiana University starting a project comparing the hydration shells around bacterial and eukaryotic proteins and finding that bacterial proteins had nice orderly hydration shells you can see in crystal structures while eukaryotic proteins are 'sticky' to other protein molecules because they are unable to hold onto water molecules well in the face of themal noise. You pointed to the work of Gerald Pollack supporting the idea of extensive ordered water and while this is a guy doing interesting materials science about the interaction of water and solutes with surfaces he is prone to making wild pronouncements on extremely small amounts of evidence and others have raised other possible explanations for his data that have been insufficiently followed up on.

There is a place for controversy in biology. At the university I am working at right now, I nearly worked with a guy who is busily basically trying to prove that the model of protein translocation across the ER membrane is wrong and far more complicated than the usual address-tag plus protein-channel for growing peptides setup in the textbooks. He even thinks that parts of it were crystallized in the public opinion of scientists before sufficient work had gone into proving it. But at a glance shoving out literally most of what is known pretty well about the way cellular metabolism and membranes work... color me sceptical to say the least.

Comment author: CasioTheSane 04 April 2014 05:55:00AM *  1 point [-]

If you have time to provide links, I would like to read the research you mention- especially on the thermodynamics of ATP and calcium-triggered membrane vesicle fusion. Ling's work is all very old and doesn't address any newer research, but Pollack addresses some of the issues you raise in his books. Pollack does love to speculate a lot, but he appears to be careful in distinguishing this speculation from things that have more evidence. Here is also a newer review paper that discusses this and some other ideas related to the role of entropy in biochemistry: Coherent Behavior and the Bound State of Water and K+ Imply Another Model of Bioenergetics: Negative Entropy Instead of High-energy Bonds

Comment author: Lumifer 04 April 2014 12:41:41AM 1 point [-]

I don't see how

maintaining the low entropy living state in a non-firing neuron requires little energy. This implies that the brain may already be very efficient, where nearly all energy is used to function, grow, and adapt.

leads to the assertion that intelligence is cell-energy limited and that increasing brain metabolism (on timescales shorter than evolutionary) will lead to increased IQ. In particular, I don't know of evidence that starving people become stupid.

Comment author: CasioTheSane 04 April 2014 12:52:49AM *  5 points [-]

I think this would be difficult to observe, because starvation also increases stress hormones which increase motivation. For the most part, brain metabolism remains high in starvation, but other glucose using systems are reduced, to preserve glucose for the brain. Ketones are also used to reduce glucose demands while keeping brain metabolism high. Ancedotally, I seem to be more motivated when fasting or dieting, but more creative when eating a nutritious diet.

Metabolic syndrome, and hypothyroidism (both diseases of decreased cellular energy production) are correlated with reduced intelligence.

Citations:

Intelligence quotient in children with congenital hypothyroidism: The effect of diagnostic and treatment variables.

Pre-morbid intelligence, the metabolic syndrome and mortality: the Vietnam Experience Study.

Contribution of Metabolic Syndrome Components to Cognition in Older Individuals

Cognitive function in non-demented older adults with hypothyroidism.

Thermodynamics of Intelligence and Cognitive Enhancement

8 CasioTheSane 03 April 2014 11:17PM

Introduction

Brain energy is often confused with motivation, but these are two distinct phenomena. Brain energy is the actual metabolic energy available to the neurons, in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) molecules. ATP is the "energy currency" of the cell, and is produced primarily by oxidative metabolism of energy from food. High motivation increases the use of this energy, but in the absence of sufficient metabolic capacity it eventually results in stress, depression, and burnout as seen in manic depression. Most attempts at cognitive enhancement only address the motivation side of the equation.

The “smart drug” culture has generally been thinking pharmaceutically rather than biologically. Behind that pharmaceutical orientation there is sometimes the idea that the individual just isn't trying hard enough, or doesn't have quite the right genes to excel mentally.

-Ray Peat, PhD

Cellular Thermodynamics

Any simple major enhancement to human intelligence is a net evolutionary disadvantage.

-Eliezer Yudkowsky (Algernon’s Law)

I propose that this constrain is imposed by the energy cost of intelligence. The conventional textbook view of neurology suggests that much of the brain's energy is "wasted" in overcoming the constant diffusion of ions across the membranes of neurons that aren't actively in use. This is necessary to keep the neurons in a 'ready state' to fire when called upon.

Why haven't we evolved some mechanism to control this massive waste of energy?

The Association-Induction hypothesis formulated by Gilbert Ling is an alternate view of cell function, which suggests a distinct functional role of energy within the cell. I won't review it in detail here, but you can find an easy to understand and comprehensive introduction to this hypothesis in the book "Cells, Gels and the Engines of Life" by Gerald H. Pollack (amazon link). This idea has a long history with considerable experimental evidence, which is too extensive to review in this article.

The Association-Induction hypothesis states that ion exclusion in the cell is maintained by the structural ordering of water within the cytoplasm, by an interaction between the cytoskeletal proteins, water molecules, and ATP. Energy (in the form of ATP) is used to unfold proteins, presenting a regular pattern of surface charges to cell water. This orders the cell water into a 'gel like' phase which excludes specific ions, because their presence within the structure is energetically unfavorable. Other ions are selectively retained, because they are adsorbed to charged sites on protein surfaces. This structured state can be maintained with no additional energy. When a neuron fires, this organization collapses, which releases energy and performs work. The neuron uses significant energy only to restore this structured low entropy state, after the neuron fires. 

This figure (borrowed from Gilbert Ling) summarizes this phenomena, showing a folded protein (on the left) and an unfolded protein creating a low entropy gel (on the right).

 

 

To summarize, maintaining the low entropy living state in a non-firing neuron requires little energy. This implies that the brain may already be very efficient, where nearly all energy is used to function, grow, and adapt rather than pump the same ions 'uphill' over and over.

Cost of Intelligence

To quote Eliezer Yudkowsky again, "the evolutionary reasons for this are so obvious as to be worth belaboring." Mammalian brains may already be nearly as efficient as their physics and structure allows, and any increase in intelligence comes with a corresponding increase in energy demand. Brain energy consumption appears correlated with intelligence across different mammals, and humans have unusually high energy requirements due to our intelligence and brain size. 

Therefore if an organism is going to compete while having a greater intelligence, it must be in a situation where this extra intelligence offers a competitive advantage. Once intelligence is adequate to meet the demands of survival in a given environment, extra intelligence merely imposes unnecessary nutritional requirements.

These thermodynamic realities of intelligence lead to the following corollary to Algernon’s Law:

Any increase in intelligence implies a corresponding increase in brain energy consumption.

Potential Implications

What is called genius is the abundance of life and health.

-Henry David Thoreau

This idea can be applied to both evaluate nootropics, and to understand and treat cognitive problems. It's unlikely that any drug will increase intelligence without adverse effects, unless it also acts to increase energy availability in the brain. From this perspective, we can categorically exclude any nootropic approaches which fail to increase oxidative metabolism in the brain.

This idea shifts the search for nootropics from neurotransmitter like drugs that improve focus and motivation, to those compounds which regulate and support oxidative metabolism such as glucose, thyroid hormones, some steroid hormones, cholesterol, oxygen, carbon dioxide, and enzyme cofactors.

Why haven't we already found that these substances increase intelligence?

Deficiencies in all of these substances do reduce intelligence. Further raising brain metabolism above normal healthy levels should be expected to be a complex problem because of the interrelation between the molecules required to support metabolism:

If you increase oxidative metabolism, the demand for all raw materials of metabolism is correspondingly increased. Any single deficiency poses a bottleneck, and may result in the opposite of the intended result.

So this suggests a 'systems biology' approach to cognitive enhancement. It's necessary to consider how metabolism is regulated, and what substrates it requires. To raise intelligence in a safe and effective way, all of these substrates must have increased availability to the neuron, in appropriate ratios.

I am always leery of drawing analogies between brains and computers but this approach to cognitive enhancement is very loosely analogous to over-clocking a CPU. Over-clocking requires raising both the clock rate, and the energy availability (voltage). In the case of the brain, the effective 'clock rate' is controlled by hormones (primarily triiodothyronine aka T3), and energy availability is provided by glucose and other nutrients.

It's not clear if merely raising brain metabolism in this way will actually result in a corresponding increase in intelligence, however I think it's unlikely that the opposite is possible (increasing intelligence without raising brain metabolism).

Comment author: kpreid 03 April 2014 04:34:40PM 2 points [-]

Also, a hot water heater is a giant tank of drinkable water, and is always full. It can be drained from a spigot at the bottom.

I would be concerned that the atypical water flow might stir up sediment (high concentrations of assorted contaminants that are in low concentrations in the incoming water). Am I right?

Comment author: CasioTheSane 03 April 2014 05:54:09PM *  1 point [-]

That's a good point. I think some old hot water heaters might even be so full of small particles that they're hard to drain from the bottom, and you might need to get the water from the top.

However, I think most of the sediment would be insoluble in water, and can be avoided by letting the water settle for a few minutes. Any soluble particles would have long since dissolved, sitting in a bath of hot flowing water for years.

Comment author: CasioTheSane 03 April 2014 10:20:27AM *  5 points [-]

Great post.

For food, I think dehydrated potatoes are a particularly effective emergency food. They're more complete nutritionally than grains and will keep you performing longer in a tough situation.

I also like to store enough fuel to safely get to a friend or family members house in another town, if necessary. My vehicle is diesel, so storing the fuel is somewhat safer than storing gasoline.

Books can be helpful as well- especially easy to read field references for emergency medicine and survival techniques. In my opinion a good book on first aid is more important than an actual first aid kit.

Also, a hot water heater is a giant tank of drinkable water, and is always full. It can be drained from a spigot at the bottom.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 April 2014 05:48:39AM *  1 point [-]

If I could change anything, it would be seeking out problem-oriented instead of method-oriented mentors. Scientists and engineers can often be divided into two categories: those who are experts at a given method and look for problems to apply it to, and those who are experts at a given problem and look for tools to attack it with. Both can be productive strategies. I have a problem-oriented perspective, but most of my mentors have been method-oriented and don't understand my unwavering focus on specific seemingly intractable problems.

I definitely get what you mean and I've been blessed with a problem-oriented mentor. However, I don't really have a strategy to seek out some similar mentors and worry that in engineering it's a lot more likely to find method-oriented persons. I'm wondering if you have any advice on this.

(My supposition: Non-applied mathematicians are dominantly problem oriented, but for problems that usually don't matter. Programmers and applied mathematicians (like Operational Research guys) will probably experience a more even distribution between the two modes, however I would guess that it would lean towards problem-oriented as the underlying ontology of phenomena are necessarily modeled from scratch (in physics and chem most of our ontology is mapped, but not so in social problems except maybe with economics).)

Lately I've been less motivated to engage because of the intractability of the problems that grabbed my attention in the first place (intelligence amplification/cognition), even though it would be the more satisfying field from a curiosity standpoint (I like science and BME is highly integrated between all scientific disciplines).

What kind of paradigm shifts do you think will occur for biology in the future? Where are the current controversies for biology right now?

In response to comment by [deleted] on Biomedical research as a career
Comment author: CasioTheSane 03 April 2014 06:27:51AM *  1 point [-]

However, I don't really have a strategy to seek out some similar mentors and worry that in engineering it's a lot more likely to find method-oriented persons. I'm wondering if you have any advice on this.

No, I'm not even sure how to easily tell if someone is method or problem oriented without at least meeting them and talking to them. If you find any ideas on this please share them with me.

intractability of the problems that grabbed my attention in the first place (intelligence amplification/cognition)

That is a very hard problem. This is wild speculation but have you looked at the concept of hormesis? Maybe it's possible to engineer the right conditions under which the brain improves it's abilities on it's own. I think in some cases living organisms can be considered 'functional systems' which adapt as much as possible to maintain function in the face of a stress or challenge. This adaptation is limited in part by overall stress levels, and metabolic rate/energy availability. Focused strategies to overcome these limitations may increase adaptive ability. This may require developing a deeper understanding of both stress and metabolism.

Consider a weight lifter that can lift over 1,000lbs, something with probably no evolutionary precedent. They get this way with a combination of very low overall stress, a high nutrient diet that raises the metabolic rate and overall energy availability, a progressively increasing and highly specific stressor, and long rest periods. Perhaps a similar approach could be applied to 'train' improved cognitive abilities? One obvious difference is that our brain is limited in size, so there may be tradeoffs involved when we improve one specific skill or ability. I imagine this idea would sound very naive to neuroscientists.

What kind of paradigm shifts do you think will occur for biology in the future?

I can't predict the future, but this is a fun question good for more wild speculation. I think genetics will be seen as increasingly less significant, and heritable traits and information will be found encoded in many different molecules and structures in living cells.

I also think progressively impaired energy availability (impaired oxidative metabolism) will be viewed as a central phenomena occurring in most degenerative diseases, aging, and failure to adapt to stressors. This simple paradigm will help focus research to understand, fix, and prevent the underlying problems, enabling a shift away from medicine focused on managing symptoms. This is a popular concept in many old medicine systems (such as chinese medicine) but it has limited effectiveness without a deep understanding of the underlying molecular mechanisms, and how to manipulate them.

Comment author: JonahSinick 02 April 2014 09:23:31PM *  0 points [-]

Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I'd love to hear more. I need some time to formulate good questions though. If you're willing to share your email address with me, you can email me at jsinick@gmail.com

Comment author: CasioTheSane 03 April 2014 03:43:11AM 1 point [-]

e-mail sent

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