In response to Norms survey (dead)
Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 12:53:41PM 0 points [-]

We should encourage and support self-experimentation by our members.

Unless the experiment is obviously harming the experimenter, encouraging this will help us find more efficient ways of doing things. I think that respecting a fellow rationalist's decision is a way of respecting their rationality as well.

In response to Norms survey (dead)
Comment author: prase 10 May 2011 12:26:18PM 1 point [-]

Can you explain why this is a very high priority for you?

Any phrase beginning with "we should believe that" seems outright irrational. Rational beliefs are grow from evidence, not moral reasoning of any kind.

  • Instead of saying "we should believe that the Earth is round because it looks round when seen from the space", just say "the Earth is round because it looks round when seen from the space". The latter sentence is clearer and doesn't lack anything important which the former has.
  • If you rather had in mind something like "we should believe that the Earth is round because else, we are no rationalists", rather say "the belief in non-round Earth is not rational (given such and such definition of rationality)".
  • If the proposed norms are intended rather procedurally, such as "we should believe that the Earth is round because whoever doesn't will be forever banished from this community", just say "whoever doesn't believe in round Earth will be forever banished from this community".

Except the last variant, the formulations without "should" don't sound like norms, and that's a feature, not a bug. Or at least should be.

In response to comment by prase on Norms survey (dead)
Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 12:50:42PM 1 point [-]

Norms really are a 'should' type of thinking. I don't like using 'should' in any capacity, because it sounds like I'm telling someone what to do, but in this case that's exactly what norms do.

It's a high priority because of the recent posts suggesting that we adopt select practices from religions. I want to know now if I should walk away, and if any efforts I'm in the process of making are just sunk costs already. Before we start adopting things from other groups, we need to have something to compare them to so that we can make sure that there aren't hidden conflicts. In general, isn't writing things down a way to avoid or expose biases?

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 10 May 2011 12:19:49PM 0 points [-]

Codifying taboos seems reasonable if we're codifying norms in general - taboos are basically norms of not doing certain things, after all.

We seem to have a pretty strong norm of not lying to each other, and a weaker (and possibly not generally endorsed) norm of not talking about any religious or spiritual practices that we might have.

Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 12:28:20PM 0 points [-]

Not lying to each other sounds like a very good one.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 10 May 2011 12:09:40PM 2 points [-]

Could you expand on the things about LDS that you don't want to see replicated among rationalists?

Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 12:22:44PM *  4 points [-]

Some of it is difficult to pull apart into clear thought, but I'll try.

I don't want to have a list of groups I have to hate to belong. I don't want to have someone trying to control my behavior by defining things as 'sin'. I don't want to be told 'we love you, we just don't like your actions', when it's clear that there is no love involved in any case. I don't want to have to remember people and feel sorry that they're part of a malignant memeplex, and that I can't do anything to help them. I don't want to dread going to a meet because I don't fit in.

No, I really don't like the LDS church. That's probably never going to change, though I'll try not to influence others' decisions on the matter. I don't hate the members, I just feel sad when I think of them, and of my ex-family.

Edit - please disregard this post

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 10 May 2011 12:03:17PM 1 point [-]

Eh?

I mentioned updating beliefs based on evidence, and acting based on one's beliefs, but not having particular beliefs in general. The last bit, about the list of common beliefs, was meant to be along the lines of "If you believe A, you should do B. If you believe C, you should do D. If you believe E...", not a list of endorsed beliefs.

Also, rationalist taboo is not about taboos in the usual sense.

Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 12:07:16PM *  0 points [-]

Oh, so it isn't. Oops. Hm.

Norms do usually contain taboos, but there isn't any particular reason that we have to. Should that category be deleted, or do we have things that we think should be taboo?

One that springs to mind as a possibility would be the use of the Dark Arts.

edit - I was thinking that our list of endorsed beliefs would be slightly more basic, things like 'rationality is worth pursuing' or something. http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html is the small amount of norms that the LDS church has codified as an easy reference to point potential converts to, and while I don't like the idea of converting people, being able to point to a set of beliefs that sounds boringly sane might be a good thing.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 10 May 2011 11:43:38AM *  3 points [-]

It may be useful to codify beliefs in particular as "what we believed in (May of) 2011" rather than "what we believe". That seems to me like it will cut down on a lot of the overhead - there's much less implication that someone should believe any particular thing on the list, and it's more obvious that 'so what?' or 'yes, because...' are good responses to 'you don't believe [particular thing] any more!'.

I'm not sure that beliefs are an appropriate thing to have in a list of LW norms in the first place, though. There are some obvious ones that seem to belong here, like the belief that believing true things is generally likely to be helpful, but other than that, well, changing beliefs is what we're about; our norms should be something a bit more meta than that.

Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 11:52:28AM *  0 points [-]

Perhaps add a version number with a datestamp?

Rationalist taboo comes to mind, and actually updating based on evidence, and generally changing one's behavior to match one's beliefs. That last one seems to require a bit more give and take than just handing someone a set of rules, but I think that's a good thing, and we could streamline the process by coming up with a list of common beliefs and behavioral implications thereof (cryo, for example).

I took the categories of the norms from this post you made earlier. The 'updating based on evidence' seemed more like a skill than a belief, and the other two categories you mention explicitly. If they end up not being a useful division, then they'll end up getting changed. I don't have any investment in them.

In response to comment by Cayenne on The 5-Second Level
Comment author: mendel 09 May 2011 12:08:16AM 0 points [-]

Well, it seems I misunderstand your statement, "It is possible to not control anger but instead never even feel it in the first place, without effort or willpower."

I know it is possible to experience anger, but control it and not act angry - there is a difference between having the feeling and acting on it. I know it is also possible to not feel anger, or to only feel anger later, when distanced from the situation. I'm ok with being aware of the feeling and not acting on it, but to get to the point where you don't feel it is where I'm starting to doubt whether it's really a net benefit.

And yes, I do understand that with understand / assumptions about other people, stuff that would have otherwise bothered me (or someone else) is no longer a source of anger. You changed your outlook and understanding of that type of situation so that your emotion is frustration and not anger. If that's what you meant originally, I understand now.

In response to comment by mendel on The 5-Second Level
Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 11:46:45AM *  0 points [-]

Mostly I don't even feel frustration, but instead sadness. I'd like to be able to help, but sometimes the best I can do is just be patient and try to explain clearly, and always immediately abandon my arguments if I find that I'm the one with the error.

Edit - please disregard this post

In response to Norms survey (dead)
Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 10 May 2011 11:25:01AM 7 points [-]

We should believe that our beliefs, taboos and practises are subject to change based on future evidence and circumstance, much of which is unknown, or even unknowable, at this time.

We also suppose that codifying them will add both a cognitive and administrative overhead to carrying out such changes.

Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 11:42:59AM 1 point [-]

Both of these seem true. Making our norms rigid will decrease our ability to adapt, and codifying them will make them harder to change.

If the group consensus ends up determining that this isn't a worthwhile endeavor, then I'll delete the article and if anyone wishes to contact me I'll apologize for the wasted time involved.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 10 May 2011 09:45:06AM *  7 points [-]

But rationalism doesn’t have a well-defined set of norms/desirable skills to develop. As a result, we Less Wrongians unsurprisingly also lack a well-developed practical system for implementation.

Implementation of what? What's the purpose of these hypothetical norms? There's no point in propagating arbitrary norms. You are describing it backwards.

Comment author: Cayenne 10 May 2011 11:24:08AM *  0 points [-]

It seems that the proper answer to this is to develop our norms in a rational manner, and reject arbitrary norms that have no purpose.
Edit - please disregard this post

Norms survey (dead)

0 Cayenne 10 May 2011 11:01AM

Edit - Barring a major surprise, this post should be regarded as a worthless artifact of my impulse to do things instead of talking about them.  I apologize for any time wasted on this, and would recommend ignoring it unless it is for historical purposes.  I'll just stick to things I'm less bad at from now on.

 

This article will be edited as people post and discuss.  

I believe that we need to have a clear, concise statement about the beliefs, practices, and taboos that it is rational to hold, and that we already hold as a group.  To be clear, this is not an attempt to make new norms, but an attempt to codify the ones that we already hold and to get a rough estimate of the popularity/importance of each.

Core Rational - skills, meta-beliefs, and habits that enhance personal rationality

Social Rational - norms that enhance working in groups rationally

LessWrong Norms - norms for dealing with Less Wrong specifically

Common Knowledge - basic, useful beliefs to build on


Please post one phrase at a time and then give your reasoning under it.  Once any idea has a common consensus, I'll add it to this article in the appropriate list.  

Edited - Removed the word 'should' as someone has suggested a better phrasing.  Edited again - category change, remove extra now-useless examples.

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