Comment author: CellBioGuy 05 April 2016 06:30:52PM *  9 points [-]

Interesting astrophysics development in our solar system with astrobiological implications: the rings and inner moons of Saturn, everything closer than Titan, may be young, forming between 100 million and 1 billion years ago rather than at the dawn of the solar system.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.07071

Recent measurements of Saturn's moon system suggest that it evolves due to tides quicker than was previously believed, with moons moving ourwards more rapidly due to bigger tidal bulges on Saturn transferring more energy. This would explain the large quantity of heat pouring out of Enceladus and powering its geysers and oceans. Tidal forces go down with the cube of distance so closer moons should move out much faster than further moons. Using new figures one can trace back the orbits of the inner moons and see that they should have hit various orbital resonances during the history of the solar system as the ratios of orbital periods changed, which would have left imprints in the system in the form of effects on the rings and changes to the orbits of the moons that we see no evidence of. Conclusion is the system is younger than the age at which backtracking would produce those events, with age limits based on estimated tidal evolution rates. The authors favor tidal evolution estimates that place the age closer to 100 million years than to a billion years, and think a previous inner moon system went unstable and ground itself to rubble in a series of catastrophic impacts before reforming into a new set of moons and rings.

If true this makes Enceladus (one of these inner moons) even more interesting from an astrobiological perspective. Not only is it geologically active with chemical energy sources and an ocean spewing its guts into space where it is easily sampled, but it could be a look at a place that is very young compared to other such places in the solar system.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 05 April 2016 06:07:39PM *  5 points [-]

Interesting molecular biology/neuroscience development: magnetically sensitive ion channels.

Some researchers through a series of trial and error screens managed to tether a tension sensitive ion chanel to an iron storage protein such that in the presence of strong magnetic fields (think rare earth magnets) the channels are pulled open and able to induce action potentials in electrically active cells.

Upon expression in sensory nerves on zebrafish, the fish reacted to swimming into magnetic fields as if they were being poked. Upon expression in deep brain structures in mice associated with reward pathways, the mice would spend lots of time near strong magnets as they felt good there.

The main anticipated application is neuroscience research. Optogenetics is a very useful tool, expressing light sensitive in channels in particular cell populations and activating them via fiber optics with light, but it sucks for manipulating deep brain structures. This can penetrate deeply, and is orthagonal to optical signals and readouts.

Paper extracted and put up by Peter Watts here: http://rifters.com/real/articles/Genetically-targeted-magnetic-control-of-the-nervous-system.pdf

Comment author: jacob_cannell 16 March 2016 06:06:28PM *  0 points [-]

Given that physics is the same across space, the math/physics/tech of different civs will end up being the same, more or less. I wouldn't call that coordination.

To extend your analogy, plants don't grow in the center of the earth - and this has nothing to do with coordination. Likewise, no human tribes colonized the ocean depths, and this has nothing to do with coordination.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 17 March 2016 01:32:25AM *  1 point [-]

I suspect you misunderstand my objection and that I may have used only half of the appropriate analogy

A universe in which your proposed ubiquitous low-matter low-energy interstellar computers exist is one in which space-based self-replication and manufacturing is a thing that happens. This implies the existence of a whole slew of 'ecological niches'. Indeed, the sort that is generally thought of in these circles (more-or-less industrially turning large amounts of matter near stars into stuff that intercepts light and uses the resultant energy for something or other) is rather simpler, is more similar to the demonstrated cases of terrestrial biology / human industry, and has more matter and energy available than what you propose. The low temperature low energy devices would be more akin to crazy deep extremophile lithotrophic bacteria or deep sea fish on Earth, living slow metabolisms and at low densities and matter/energy fluxes, while things in star systems would be akin to photosynthetic plants and algae at the surface, living at high densities at high flux.

In any situation other than perfect coordination, that which replicates itself more rapidly becomes more common. You will have adaptation and evolution. It doesn't matter if more computation can be done in one place than another - in terms of sheer matter and energy, that which uses high energy fluxes and large amounts of matter will replicate to large numbers and be dominant in terms of amount of stuff and effect on the physical universe. Other stuff could still exist, but most stuff would be of this faster heavier type. Niches will be filled. And a stellar system niche is not akin to the deep ocean if an interstellar niche is compared to the surface of the Earth, if anything it's the opposite. The deep sea niche may be where you see all kinds of fascinating bioluminescence and long distance signaling epiphenomena that these organisms care about and of a sort you dont see at the surface, but in terms of biomass the surface niche dominates. Furthermore, competition amongst different things mean they often do things inefficiently so as to gain advantages over each other - those that do become more common faster.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 12 March 2016 05:17:05AM 0 points [-]

If planets like Earth were very rare in ways that didn't change much with time you'd still see a time that was typical

The time measurement is not the only rank measurement we have. We also can compare the sun vs other stars, and it is mediocre across measurements.

Rarity requires an (intrinsically unlikely, ala solomonoff) mechanism - something unusual that happened at some point in the developmental process, and most such mechanisms would entangle with multiple measurements.

At this point in time we can pretty much rule out all mechanisms operating at the stellar scale, it would have to be something far more local.

Tectonics as rare has been disproven recently. Europa was recently shown to have active tectonics, possibly pluto, and probably mars at least at some point.

For later evolutionary development stuff, it will be awhile before we have any data for rank measurements. But given how every other measurement so far has come up as mediocre . . ..

We can learn alot actually from exploring europa, mars, and other spots that could/should have some evidence for at least simple life. That can help fit at least a simple low complexity model for typical planetary development.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 16 March 2016 03:48:11PM *  0 points [-]

We can learn alot actually from exploring europa, mars, and other spots that could/should have some evidence for at least simple life. That can help fit at least a simple low complexity model for typical planetary development.

Dear gods yes. We are finally at the point where we can start asking the intelligent questions. We have learned so much about these places and about life on Earth that we forget how little we do know.

Comment author: turchin 15 March 2016 09:39:07PM *  4 points [-]

Probably everybody had seen it, but EY wrote long post on FB about AlphaGO which get 400 reposts. The post overestimates power of AlphaGO, and in general it seems to me that EY did too much conclusions based on very small available information (3:0 wins at the moment of the post - 10 pages of conclusions). The post's comment section includes contribution from Robin Hanson about usual foom's speed and type topic. EY later updated his predictions based on Segol win on game 4 and stated that even superhuman AI could make dumb mistakes, which may result in new type of AI failures.

https://www.facebook.com/yudkowsky/posts/10154018209759228?pnref=story

Comment author: CellBioGuy 15 March 2016 10:31:48PM 1 point [-]

So, whats the difference between 'superhuman with dumb mistakes', 'dumb with some superhuman skills', and 'better at some things and worse at others'?

Comment author: jacob_cannell 12 March 2016 10:34:03PM *  3 points [-]

The high value matter/energy or real estate is probably a tiny portion of the total, and is probably far from stars, as stellar environments are too noisy/hot for advanced computation.

Can you expand on this?

See this post.

Extrapolating from current physics to ultimate computational intelligences, the most important constraint is temperature/noise, not energy. A hypothetical optimal SI would consume almost no energy, and it's computational capability would be inversely proportional to it's temperature. So at the limits you have something very small, dense, cold, and dark, approaching a black hole.

Passive shielding appears to be feasible, but said feasibility decreases non-linearly with proximity to stars.

So think of the computational potential of space-time as a function of position in the galaxy. The computational potential varies inversely with temperature. The potential near a star is abysmal. The most valuable real estate is far out in the interstellar medium, potentially on rogue planets or even smaller cold bodies, where passive shielding can help reduce temperatures down to very low levels.

So to an advanced civ, the matter in our solar system is perhaps worthless - the energy cost of pulling the matter far enough away from the star and cooling it is greater than it's computational value.

All computation requires matter/energy.

Computation requires matter to store/represent information, but doesn't require consumption of that matter. Likewise computation also requires energy, but does not require consumption of that energy.

At the limits you have a hypothetical perfect reversible quantum computer, which never erases any bits. Instead, unwanted bits are recycled internally and used for RNG. This requires a perfect balance of erasure with random bit consumption, but that seems possible in theory for general approximate inference algorithms of the types SI is likely to be based on.

that the stars were huge piles of valuable materials that had inconveniently caught fire and needed to be put out.

This is probably incorrect. From the perspective of advanced civs, the stars are huge piles of worthless trash. They are the history of life rather than it's future, the oceans from which advanced post-bio civs emerge.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 15 March 2016 07:18:55PM *  0 points [-]

This idea implies a degree of coordination that does not happen in actual ecologies we have seen. Thus we get trees extravagantly sucking up mineral nutrients and building massive scaffolds to hold their photosynthetic structures over their competition, and weeds that voraciously multiply and compete with each other to take up every bit of sunlight and soil they can that the bigger things can't establish themselves in, rather than a thin scum of microbial mats that efficiently intercepts energy. You are implying a climax community without any other seres, and large amounts of material that while not being used efficiently are not used at all.

Things that reproduce themselves effectively become more common regardless of efficiency, and even multicellular organisms built of exquisite coordination get cancer.

Comment author: turchin 12 March 2016 11:01:59PM 1 point [-]

Sun luminosity is increasing and oceans will boil down in 1 billion years or sooner.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 13 March 2016 06:05:20PM *  2 points [-]

Correct. We are somewhere between 250 megayears and 2 gigayears away from the Earth becoming another Venus depending on whose models you look at (the runaway greenhouse being one of 2 or 3 endpoint outcomes for a terrestrial planet given enough time).

This being said, the whole of earth's history might not be relevant to look at for complex life. Eukaryotes are OLD, gigayears old, but there's a set of paleontologists who think that the Cambrian diversification of macroscopic animals 550+ megayears ago might have been CAUSED by increasing oxygen concentrations which might have something to do with the running down of Earth's geology. More on this in another post; for now I recommend the book "Oxygen: A 4 Billion Year History." If one uses this notion of a windowed subset of time when complex life is possible we could be roughly in the middle of THAT.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 March 2016 05:42:58AM *  3 points [-]

I take this as another sign favoring transcension over expansion, and also weird-universes.

The standard dev model is expansion - habitable planets lead to life leads to intelligence leads to tech civs which then expand outward.

If the standard model was correct, barring any wierd late filter, then the first civ to form in each galaxy would colonize the rest and thus preclude other civs from forming.

Given that the strong mediocrity principle holds - habitable planets are the norm, life is probably the norm, enormous expected number of bio worlds, etc, if the standard model is correct than most observers will find themselves on an unusually early planet - because the elder civs prevent late civs from forming.

But that isn't the case, so that model is wrong. In general it looks like a filter is hard to support, given how strongly all the evidence has lined up for mediocrity, and the inherent complexity penalty.

Transcension remains as a viable alternative. Instead of expanding outward, each civ progresses to a tech singularity and implodes inward, perhaps by creating new baby universes, and perhaps using that to alter the distribution over the multiverse, and thus gaining the ability to effectively alter physics (as current models of baby universe creation suggest the parent universe has some programming level control over the physics of the seed). This would allow exponential growth to continue, which is enormously better than expansion which only provides polynomial growth. So everyone does this if it's possible. Furthermore, if it's possible anywhere in the multiverse, then those pockets expand faster, and thus they was and will dominate everywhere. So if that's true the multiverse has/will be edited/restructured/shaped by (tiny, compressed, cold, invisible) gods.

Barring transcension wierdness, another possibility is that the multiverse is somehow anthropic tuned for about 1 civ per galaxy, and galaxy size is cotuned for this, as it provides a nice sized niche for evolution, similar to the effect of continents/island distributions on the earth scale. Of course, this still requires a filter, which has a high complexity penalty.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 11 March 2016 08:48:31PM *  4 points [-]

I raise my standard point, that there is a huge insufficiently explored possibility space in which lack of interstellar expansion is neither a choice nor indicative of destruction/failure to form in the first place, but merely something that is not practically possible with anything reliably self replicating in the messy real world. Perhaps we must revisit the assumption of increasing mastery over the physical world not having an upper bound below that point.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 11 March 2016 07:08:32PM 0 points [-]

I take it as strong evidence for Rare earth.

It's the exact opposite.

If the earth was rare, this rarity would show up in the earth's rank along many measurement dimensions. Rarity requires selection pressure - a filter - which alters the distribution. We don't see that at all. Instead we see no filtering, no unusual rank in the dimensions we can measure. The exact opposite is far more likely true - the earth is common.

For instance, say that the earth was rare in orbiting a rare type of star. Then we would see that the sun would have unusual rank along many dimensions. Instead it is normal/typical - in brightness, age, type, planets, etc.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 11 March 2016 08:42:43PM *  2 points [-]

This overstates the case. If planets like Earth were very rare in ways that didn't change much with time you'd still see a time that was typical. One can imagine some things we have a sample size of one for being rare in ways that don't have anything to do with star order - origins of eukaryotes, plate tectonics, oxygenic photosynthesis...

This being said, I think the sheer DEGREE of rare Earth being implied by turchin and others is still very unlikely, even though there's a whole lot that we have little information on. It remains a not fully excluded possibility, but there are a hell of a lot of others.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 11 March 2016 06:01:03PM 1 point [-]

How about Risk?

Comment author: CellBioGuy 11 March 2016 06:55:06PM 0 points [-]

This I would love to see.

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