In response to comment by Chef on Alpha Mail
Comment author: V_V 26 July 2014 08:37:18PM 0 points [-]

Aliens from other planets are one thing, the sort of thing weird low-status UFO cultists believe.

"Aliens" from outside our universe, who happened to have created it, and maybe even want to have a personal relationship with us (otherwise why would they try to send messages encoded in alpha?) are gods under another name.

..., Hinduism ...

Do you know where the word "avatar" comes from?

In response to comment by V_V on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 26 July 2014 09:50:33PM 1 point [-]

Agreed, simply calling a creator an alien is simply redefining alien to mean god. I gotta give it to you LWers, conversations on here have certainly proved already to be quite a bit more interesting than with my old line cooks.

In response to comment by John_Maxwell_IV on Alpha Mail
Comment author: jbay 26 July 2014 06:47:48AM 1 point [-]

Aside from the fact that having godly power doesn't necessarily correlate well with an ease of understanding life-forms...

The universe less like a carefully painted mural in which humans and other life forms were mapped out in exquisite and intricate detail, and more like a big empty petri dish set in a warm spot billions of years ago. The underlying specifications for creating the universe seem to be pretty simple mathematically (a few laws and some low-entropy initial conditions). The complex part is just the intricate structures that have arisen over time.

In response to comment by jbay on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 26 July 2014 03:53:00PM 0 points [-]

Exactly. Which reminds me of the computational irreducibility of the universal cellular automaton a la Wolfram.

In response to comment by John_Maxwell_IV on Alpha Mail
Comment author: HungryHobo 25 July 2014 09:25:57AM 5 points [-]

back in uni I was playing around with artificial neural networks and genetic algorithms.

I'd found the AI classes interesting and wanted to play around with some of the methods.

I created some agents, a little 2d environment, a fitness function and a framework for breeding.

I left it running overnight and came back to little agents merrily trundling round my 2d environment and performing extremely well.

I had no idea how they were achieving it, I just knew that they were.

I could see the state of every node in their ANN but that didn't mean I could easily decode the states and weightings to figure out their "thought processes".

And that was just a little ANN with about 100 nodes.

Even if you can create something and see all it's constituent parts doesn't mean you understand everything about it.

In response to comment by HungryHobo on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 26 July 2014 03:47:01PM 0 points [-]

This is precisely the type of simulation I'm taking about. I was also playing with genetic algorithms when I started thinking about this. So let me ask you this, if you got to a point where it was evident that your agents were conscience, intelligent, and examining their own environment, what sort of methods can you devise to communicate with them?

In response to Alpha Mail
Comment author: V_V 25 July 2014 09:46:02AM 5 points [-]

Parsimony.

Even if the fine-structure constant can indeed vary (which is something I intuitively find unlikely by anthropic reasoning, as it would pretty much screw up chemistry as we know it), god (or "intelligent designer" or "simulation programmer", if you prefer) isn't the simplest explanation for it.

In response to comment by V_V on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 26 July 2014 03:29:11PM 0 points [-]

Just so we are clear...I don't believe in God in any religious sense. I think that increasingly science views the universe in terms of information and so we should examine the idea that information built into our universe may contain clues to or a communication channel for other life trying to communicate. I personally can't think of too many ways that life outside of our universe could communicate with us but find the idea to be interesting if not a stretch. I do understand it's a slippery slope as evidenced by things like the Bible Code where recursive search yields anything we want to find. We could then just use all kinds of banal natural processes as evidence of God (intelligent design).

In response to comment by Chef on Alpha Mail
Comment author: V_V 25 July 2014 09:39:39AM 1 point [-]

God or gods aren't necessarily omnipotent in all religions.
Just because you don't believe in textbook Catholicism it doesn't mean that you are an atheist.

In response to comment by V_V on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 26 July 2014 03:12:35PM 0 points [-]

Sure, but if I believe that aliens in a multiverse outside of our own happened to create a simulation that is our universe, does that constitute God in any sense intended by religion? Theism requires that the God has an active role in the creations lives, not simply a belief in a creator - omnipotent or not. The only religion I can think of that mention aliens in doctrine is Scientology. And while I'm sure that most people would allow for Scientology as a religion, I'm pretty sure that with a hundred thousand people arranging the following list of religions based on best to worst religious beliefs, my bet is on scientology coming in dead last.

Christianity, Jainism, Sikh, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology, Judaism, Zoroastrian, Shinto, Wicca.

Which doesn't say anything about the actual validity of those religions, just that the majority of people would probably view a religion steeped in aliens to be less like a religion than the others.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 July 2014 05:30:22PM *  3 points [-]

Hello and welcome to LessWrong!

I admire your reasons for joining. It is easy to find a group or circle that does not challenge you and then rest on your laurels. Seeking out disagreement and criticism is a hard first step for a lot of people. But don't worry... you will certainly find both here! Not that that is a bad thing.

I see you've already added to the Discussion forum. Good on you for diving in and starting some new conversation. If you have some ideas you want to share and get critiqued but feel they are not fully formed enough for a post of their own, try the Open Thread. Even Open Thread conversations can be quite engaging and constructive (and heated! Don't forget heated).

Also, I don't know if you've read any of the LW literature people tend to reference, but, given your interest in refining your ideas, this) set of posts might interest you.

Comment author: Chef 25 July 2014 08:38:34PM 1 point [-]

Thanks for the guidance. It can be intimidating exposing your ideas to a new set of people. I've been reading things here on LW off and on for roughly a year. There is quite a bit of jargon on this site and I've been reading through as many sequences as I have time for to try and fill myself in. I find that even concepts I'm familiar with tend to have sub-context here that doesn't quite allow me to fully understand some of the ideas being discussed. I have a fairy good grasp of map versus territory for example, but my understanding comes by way of The Precession of Simulacra by ‎Jean Baudrillard, where in that book he argues that the territory no longer exists, and only the map is real. That is quite different from the arguments I've seen here postulating that we can somehow gain access to the true underlaying territory. Regardless, I expect that with enough reading, I'll be able to contribute. I was a chef for 17 years, so heated debates don't intimidate me I have a thick skin. I ask that people understand the ideas I have - not agree with me. I will give others the same curtesy. Again, thanks for the welcome. I'll check out the links. Cheers.

In response to comment by Chef on Alpha Mail
Comment author: buybuydandavis 24 July 2014 11:48:54PM *  2 points [-]

From your reply, I don't think I was clear enough about what I meant.

I'm a theist, or not, dependent on my attitude to a purported God, not on a purported God's attitude toward me, and not on anything the God does, intends, or wants.

Let the usual All Powerful Celestial Psychopath actually exist. Knows all, sees all, and will judge all in the end. Let me know it, not just believe it. No faith. Overwhelming evidence.

Knowing that still doesn't make me a theist.

I think modern day theism is best characterized as a belief in an unchosen obligation to be an adoring slave.

I saw the best (and most horrifying) example while driving past a church one day. I'm still kicking myself for not taking a picture. If anyone can place the phrase, as I'm guessing it is some quote or allusion, please provide the reference.

"Though I burn in the flames of Hell, I will Love the Lord my God."

In response to comment by buybuydandavis on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 25 July 2014 01:24:44AM *  0 points [-]

I don't think it's quite enough to simply have a particular attitude to a God to be a theist. It has to go both ways.

the·ism noun belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

In response to Alpha Mail
Comment author: buybuydandavis 24 July 2014 09:11:32PM *  5 points [-]

Can I still call myself an atheist if I allow the possibility of a creator in this context?

Sure. Theism is best defined in terms of an attitude toward a being, not about it's existence, what it has done, or what it is capable of doing.

In response to comment by buybuydandavis on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 24 July 2014 10:48:52PM 1 point [-]

I wholeheartedly agree. I had a professor (a former priest) who thought it was absurd that I was willing to use the term creator but unwilling to admit a God. To his dogma they are one and the same. But for me, even if a creator has the power to pull the plug on this experiment, my current thinking doesn't allow omnipotence in the sense used by most theists. And I can't imagine that a creator in this context has the ability to hear our thoughts, respond to daily minutia, or has any interest in dictating morality to a bunch of bits in a hard drive.

In response to comment by DanielLC on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Lexico 24 July 2014 06:45:00AM 0 points [-]

You might want to make the signal hard to find. If it's your test for intelligence, the harder it is to find the alpha mail and construct a response, the higher the level of intelligence it would select for.

Maybe no puzzles are seen from our perspective simply because we aren't on the order of magnitude of the level of intelligence that any who have the power to simulate a universe like ours would be looking for.

In response to comment by Lexico on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 24 July 2014 08:38:14PM 0 points [-]

This is what I was thinking also. Not only would it be important to be selective but also attempt to minimize disruption as much as possible. Shining a light through a universe might make some life forms uncomfortable.

In response to Alpha Mail
Comment author: polymathwannabe 24 July 2014 01:56:52PM 3 points [-]

The thought of being able to communicate with an external intelligence is thought provoking enough for me that I decided to write this as my first post here. Who knows?

Very good post, but I'd suggest you remove Who knows? from your argumentation arsenal. It opens the door to treating your favorite hypotheses with undue weight.

In response to comment by polymathwannabe on Alpha Mail
Comment author: Chef 24 July 2014 08:35:47PM 1 point [-]

Duly Noted. Those were both very good reads, thanks for that.

View more: Next