Had you used small and large numbers instead of the terms torture and dust specks, the whole post would have been trivial. I learned a fair bit about my own thinking in the aftermath of reading that infamous post, and I suspect I am not the only one. I even intentionally used politically charged terms in my own post.

Your heuristics are, in my opinion, too conservative or not strong enough.

Track record of saying reasonable things once again seems to put the burden of decision on your subjective feelings and so rule out paying attention to people you disagree with. If you're a creationist, you can rule out paying attention to Richard Dawkins, because if he's wrong about God existing, about the age of the Earth, and about homosexuality being okay, how can you ever expect him to be right about evolution? If you're anti-transhumanism, you can rule out cryonicists because they tend to say lots of other unreasonable things like that computers will be smarter than humans, or that there can be "intelligence explosions", or that you can upload a human brain.

Status within mainstream academia is a really good heuristic, and this is part of what I mean when I say I use education as a heuristic. Certainly to a first approximation, before investigating a field, you should just automatically believe everything the mainstream academics believe. But then we expect mainstream academia to be wrong in a lot of cases - you bring up the case of mainstream academic philosophy, and although I'm less certain than you are there, I admit I am very skeptical of them. So when we say we need heuristics to find ideas to pay attention to, I'm assuming we've already started by assuming mainstream academia is always right, and we're looking for which challenges to them we should pay attention to. I agree that "challenges the academics themselves take seriously" is a good first step, but I'm not sure that would suffice to discover the critique of mainstream philosophy. And it's very little help at all in fields like politics.

The crackpot warning signs are good (although it's interesting how often basically correct people end up displaying some of them because they get angry at having their ideas rejected and so start acting out, and it also seems like people have a bad habit of being very sensitive to crackpot warning signs the opposing side displays and very obtuse to those their own side displays). But once again, these signs are woefully inadequate. Plantinga doesn't look a bit like a crackpot.

You point out that "Even though appearances can be misleading, they're usually not." I would agree, but suggest you extend this to IQ and rationality. We are so fascinated by the man-bites-dog cases of very intelligent people believing stupid things that it's hard to remember that stupid things are still much, much likelier to be believed by stupid people.

(possible exceptions in politics, but politics is a weird combination of factual and emotive claims, and even the wrong things smart people believe in politics are in my category of "deserve further investigation and charitable treatment".)

You are right that I rarely have the results of an IQ test (or Stanovich's rationality test) in front of me. So when I say I judge people by IQ, I think I mean something like what you mean when you say "a track record of making reasonable statements", except basing "reasonable statements" upon "statements that follow proper logical form and make good arguments" rather than ones I agree with.

So I think it is likely that we both use a basket of heuristics that include education, academic status, estimation of intelligence, estimation of rationality, past track record, crackpot warning signs, and probably some others.

I'm not sure whether we place different emphases on those, or whether we're using about the same basket but still managing to come to different conclusions due to one or both of us being biased.

I agree that what look like disrespectful discussions at first could eventually lead to Aumann agreement, but my impression is that there are a lot of persistent disagreements within the online rationalist community. Eliezer's disagreements with Robin Hanson are well-known. My impression is that even people within MIRI have persistent disagreements with each other, though not as big as the Eliezer-Robin disagreements. I don't know for sure Alicorn and I would continue to disagree about the ethics of white lies if we talked it out thoroughly, but it wouldn't remotely surprise me. Et cetera.

Are ethics supposed to be Aumann-agreeable? I'm not at all sure the original proof extends that far. If it doesn't, that would cover your disagreement with Alicorn as well as a very large number of other disagreements here.

I don't think it would cover Eliezer vs. Robin, but I'm uncertain how "real" that disagreement is. If you forced both of them to come up with probability estimates for an em scenario vs. a foom scenario, then showed them both each other's estimates and put a gun to their heads and asked them whether they wanted to Aumann-update or not, I'm not sure they wouldn't agree to do so.

Even if they did, it might be consistent with their current actions: if there's a 20% chance of ems and 20% chance of foom (plus 60% chance of unpredictable future, cishuman future, or extinction) we would still need intellectuals and organizations planning specifically for each option, the same way I'm sure the Cold War Era US had different branches planning for a nuclear attack by USSR and a nonnuclear attack by USSR.

I will agree that there are some genuinely Aumann-incompatible disagreements on here, but I bet it's fewer than we think.

I guess I need to clarify that I think IQ is a terrible proxy for rationality, that the correlation is weak at best. And your suggested heuristic will do nothing to stop high IQ crackpots from ignoring the mainstream scientific consensus. Or even low IQ crackpots who can find high IQ crackpots to support them.

So I want to agree with you, but there's this big and undeniable problem we have and I'm curious how you think we should solve it if not through something resembling IQ.

You agree people need to be more charitable, at least toward out-group members. And this would presumably involve taking people whom we are tempted to dismiss, and instead not dismissing them and studying them further. But we can't do this for everyone - most people who look like crackpots are crackpots. There are very likely people who look like crackpots but are actually very smart out there (the cryonicists seem to be one group we can both agree on) and we need a way to find so we can pay more attention to them.

We can't use our subjective feeling of is-this-guy-a-crackpot-or-not, because that's what got us into this problem in the first place. Presumably we should use the Outside View. But it's not obvious what we should be Outside Viewing on. The two most obvious candidates are "IQ" and "rationality", which when applied tend to produce IQ fetishism and in group favoritism (since until Stanovich actually produces his rationality quotient test and gives it to everybody, being in a self-identified rationalist community and probably having read the whole long set of sequences on rationality training is one of the few proxies for rationality we've got available).

I admit both of these proxies are terrible. But they seem to be the main thing keeping us from, on the one side, auto-rejecting all arguments that don't sound subjectively plausible to us at first glance, and on the other, having to deal with every stupid creationist and homeopath who wants to bloviate at us.

There seems to be something that we do do that's useful in this sphere. Like if someone with a site written in ALL CAPS and size 20 font claims that Alzheimers is caused by a bacterium, I dismiss it without a second thought because we all know it's a neurodegenerative disease. But a friend who has no medical training but whom I know is smart and reasonable recently made this claim, I looked it up, and sure enough there's a small but respectable community of microbiologists and neuroscientists investigating that maybe Alzheimers is triggered by an autoimmune response to some bacterium. It's still a long shot, but it's definitely not crackpottish. So somehow I seem to have some sort of ability for using the source of an implausible claim to determine whether I investigate it further, and I'm not sure how to describe the basis on which I make this decision beyond "IQ, rationality, and education".

I'm also curious as to how much of your willingness to agree with me in dismissing Plantinga is based on him being just one person. Would you be more inclined to take a sizeable online community of Plantingas seriously?

Well, empirically I did try to investigate natural law theology based on there being a sizeable community of smart people who thought it was valuable. I couldn't find anything of use in it, but I think it was a good decision to at least double-check.

On the one hand, I dislike the rhetoric of charity as I see it happen on LessWrong. On the other hand, in practice, you're probably right that people aren't too charitable. In practice, the problem is selective charity—a specific kind of selective charity, slanted towards favoring people's in-group. And you seem to endorse this selective charity.

If you think people are too uncharitable in general, but also that we're selectively charitable to the in-group, is that equivalent to saying the real problem is that we're not charitable enough to the out-group? If so, what subsection of the out-group would you recommend we be more charitable towards? And if we're not supposed to select that subsection based on their intelligence, rationality, education, etc, how do we select them?

And if we're not supposed to be selective, how do we avoid spending all our time responding to total, obvious crackpots like creationists and Time Cube Guy?

On the other hand, if you think someone's membership in the online rationalist community is a strong reason to treat what they say charitably, yeah, I'm calling that self-congratulatory nonsense. And that's the essence of my reply to your point #5. It's not people having self-congratulatory attitudes on an individual level. It's the self-congratulatory attitudes towards their in-group.

Yeah, this seems like the point we're disagreeing on. Granted that all proxies will be at least mostly terrible, do you agree that we do need some characteristics that point us to people worth treating charitably? And since you don't like mine, which ones are you recommending?

My two paragraphs refer to two different things Eliezer said. The contrast is indicated by the word "but." Tenoke says that he asserted that, exactly. I assume Eliezer was just lying to get him to shut up.

There are a lot of reasons not to look directly at the database. But once the person wrote an acceptable query years ago, yes, it should be easy to just try it again.

Just curious, how does Plantinga's argument prove that pigs fly? I only know how it proves that the perfect cheeseburger exists...

People on LW have started calling themselves "rationalists". This was really quite alarming the first time I saw it. People used to use the words "aspiring rationalist" to describe themselves, with the implication that e didn't consider ourselves close to rational yet.

His assertion that there is no way to check seems to me a better outcome than these posts shouting into the wind that don't get any response.
But now that he made the particular comment, one could contact him to ask for an update, rather than a whole request.

[T]rying to suppress overt signaling games runs the risk of driving them underground, forcing them to be disguised as something else, rather than doing them in a self-aware and fun way.

Borrowing from the "Guess vs. Tell (vs. Ask)" meta-discussion, then, perhaps it would be useful for the community to have an explicit discussion about what kinds of signals we want to converge on? It seems that people with a reasonable understanding of game theory and evolutionary psychology would stand a better chance deliberately engineering our group's social signals than simply trusting our subconsciouses to evolve the most accurate and honest possible set.

Also, beware signaling games. A good dose of Hansonian cynicism, applied to your own in-group, is healthy.

Not if you want to be accepted by that group. Being bad at signaling games can be crippling - as much as intellectual signaling poisons discourse, it's also the glue that holds a community together enough to make discourse possible.

Example: how likely you are to get away with making a post or comment on signaling games is primarily dependent on how good you are at signaling games, especially how good you are at the "make the signal appear to plausibly be something other than a signal" part of signaling games.

Could whoever modded me down please explain why they modded me down? I must have lost around 20 karma in the past few days because I am getting constantly modded down for almost anything I post.