Comment author: gwern 13 January 2014 10:53:56PM 2 points [-]

I don't follow. How can consumption increase economic growth when it comes at the cost of investment? Investment is what creates economic output.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 14 January 2014 11:28:13AM -2 points [-]

There is such a thing as overinvestment. There is also such a thing as underconsumption, which is what we have right now.

Comment author: Oligopsony 13 January 2014 04:28:08PM 1 point [-]

To provide a concrete example, this seems to suggest that a person who favours the Republicans over the Democrats and expects the Republicans to do well in the midterms should vote for a Libertarian, thereby making the Republicans more dependent on the Tea Party. This is counterintuitive, to say the least.

Is it? Again, I haven't done the math, but look at the behavior of minor parties in parliamentary systems. They typically demand a price for their support. If the Republican will get your vote regardless why should they care about you?

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 09:00:37PM -1 points [-]

I agree that voting for a third party which better represents your ideals can make the closer main party move in that direction. The problem is that this strategy makes the main party more dependent upon its other supporters, which can lead to identity politics and legislative gridlock. If there were no Libertarian party, for example, libertarian candidates would have stood as Republicans, thereby shifting internal debate towards libertarianism.

Another effect of voting for a third party is that it affects the electoral strategy of politically distant main parties. If a main party is beaten by a large enough margin it is likely to try to reinvent itself, or at least to replace key figures. If a large third party takes a share of the votes, especially of those disillusioned with main parties, it may have significant effects on long-term strategies.

Comment author: Calvin 13 January 2014 04:25:37PM 3 points [-]

I am assuming that all the old sad hermits are of this world are being systematically chopped for spare parts granted to deserving and happy young people, while good meaning utilitarians hide this sad truth from us, so that I don't become upset about those atrocities that are currently being committed in my name?

We are not even close to utility monster, and personally I know very few people who I would consider actual utilitarians.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 08:47:48PM 0 points [-]

No, but cows, pigs, hens and so on are being systematically chopped up for the gustatory pleasure of people who could get their protein elsewhere. For free-range, humanely slaughtered livestock you could make an argument that this is a net utility gain for them, since they wouldn't exist otherwise, but the same cannot be said for battery animals.

Comment author: Oligopsony 13 January 2014 04:10:11AM 2 points [-]

Another consideration is the effects of your decision criteria on the lesser evil itself. All else being equal, and assuming your politics aren't so unbelievably unimaginative that you see yourself somewhere between the two mainstream alternatives, you should prefer the lesser evil to be more beholden to its base. The logic of this should be most evident in parliamentary systems, where third party voters can explicitly coordinate and sometimes back and sometimes withdraw support from their nearest mainstream parties, depending on policy concessions.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 03:38:17PM -1 points [-]

you should prefer the lesser evil to be more beholden to its base

How would you go about achieving this? The only interpretation that occurs to me is to minimise the number of votes for the less-dispreferred main party subject to the constraint that it wins, thereby making it maximally indebted to (which seems an unlikely way for politicians to think) and maximally (apparently) dependent upon its strongest supporters.

To provide a concrete example, this seems to suggest that a person who favours the Republicans over the Democrats and expects the Republicans to do well in the midterms should vote for a Libertarian, thereby making the Republicans more dependent on the Tea Party. This is counterintuitive, to say the least.

I disagree with the initial claim. While moving away from centre for an electoral term might lead to short-term gains (e.g. passing something that is mainly favoured by more extreme voters), it might also lead to short-term losses (by causing stalemate and gridlock). In the longer term, taking a wingward stance seems likely to polarise views of the party, strengthening support from diehards but weakening appeal to centrists.

Comment author: Calvin 13 January 2014 11:24:04AM *  1 point [-]

It is true, I wasn't specific enough, but I wanted to emphasize the opinion part, and the suffering part was meant to emphasize his life condition.

He was, presumably - killed without his consent, and therefore the whole affair seems so morally icky from a non-utilitarian perspective.

If your utility function does not penalize for making bad things as long as net result is correct, you are likely to end up in a world full of utility monsters.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 03:04:03PM 1 point [-]

We live in a world full of utility monsters. We call them humans.

Comment author: Lalartu 13 January 2014 02:19:55PM 11 points [-]

Well, why do you think socialism is so horribly wrong? During the 20th century socialists more or less won and got what they wanted. Things like social security, govermental control over business and redistribution of wealth in general are all socialist. This all may be bad from some point of view, but it is in no way mainstream opinion.

Then, those guys whom you mention in your article called themselves communists and marxists. At most, they considered socialism as some intermediate stage for building communism. And communism went bad because it was founded on wrong assumptions about how both economy and human psychology work. So, which MIRI/Lesswrong assumptions can be wrong and cause a lot of harm? Well, here are some examples.

1) Building FAI is possible, and there is a reliable way to tell if it is truly FAI before launching it. Result if wrong: paperclips.

2) Building FAI is much more difficult than AI. Launching a random AI is civilization-level suicide. Result if this idea becomes widespread: we don't launch any AI before civilization runs out of resources or collapses for some other reason.

3) Consciousness is sort of optional feature, intelligence can work just well without it. We can reliably say if given intelligence is a person. In other words, real world works the same way as in Peter Watts "Blindsight". Results if wrong: many, among them classic sci-fi AI rebellion.

4) Subscribing for cryonics is generally a good idea. Result if widespread: these costs significantly contribute to worldwide economic collapse.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 02:59:56PM 1 point [-]

4) Subscribing for cryonics is generally a good idea. Result if widespread: these costs significantly contribute to worldwide economic collapse.

Under the assumption that cryonics patients will never be unfrozen, cryonics has two effects. Firstly, resources are spent on freezing people, keeping them frozen and researching how to improve cryonics. There may be fringe benefits to this (for example, researching how to freeze people more efficiently might lead to improvements in cold chains, which would be pretty snazzy). There would certainly be real resource wastage.

The second effect is in increasing the rate of circulation of the currency; freezing corpses that will never be revived is pretty close to burying money, as Keynes suggested. Widespread, sustained cryonic freezing would certainly have stimulatory, and thus inflationary, effects; I would anticipate a slightly higher inflation rate and an ambiguous effect on economic growth. The effects would be very small, however, as cryonics is relatively cheap and would presumably grow cheaper. The average US household wastes far more money and real resources by not recycling or closing curtains and by allowing food to spoil.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 02:13:48PM 2 points [-]

A query about threads:

I posted a query in discussion because I didn't know this thread exists. I got my answer and was told that I should have used the Open Thread, so I deleted the main post, which the FAQ seems to be saying will remove it from the list of viewable posts. Is this sufficient?

I also didn't see my post appear under discussion/new before I deleted it. Where did it appear so that other people could look at it?

In response to Anthropic Atheism
Comment author: Viliam_Bur 12 January 2014 08:43:24PM *  10 points [-]

If she is paid for each correct guess, for example, she'll say that she thinks the coin came up tails (this way she gets $2 half the time instead of $1 half the time for heads). If she’s paid only on Monday, she’s indifferent between the options, as she should be.

This clicked so hard it almost hurt. Indeed Bayesians should be willing to bet on their beliefs; so the rational belief depends on how specifically the bet is resolved. In other words, what specifically happens to the Sleeping Beauty based on her beliefs? (And if the beliefs have absolutely no consequence, what's the point of getting them right?)

Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 02:00:37PM 0 points [-]

the rational belief depends on how specifically the bet is resolved

No. Bayesian prescribes believing things in proportion to their likelihood of being true, given the evidence observed; it has nothing to do with the consequences of those beliefs for the believer. Offering odds cannot change the way the coin landed. If I expect a net benefit of a million utilons for opining that the Republicans will win the next election, I will express that opinion, regardless of whether I believe it or not; I will not change my expectations about the electoral outcome.

There is probability 0.5 that she will be woken once and probability 0.5 that she will be woken twice. If the coin comes up tails she will be woken twice and will receive two payouts for correct guesses. It is therefore in her interests to guess that the coin came up tails when her true belief is that P(T)=0.5; it is equivalent to offering a larger payout for guessing tails correctly than for guessing heads correctly.

In response to Karma query
Comment author: Tenoke 13 January 2014 11:56:49AM 3 points [-]

Downvoted because I think that queries like this one should be posted to the Open Thread, instead of cluttering Discussion.

In response to comment by Tenoke on Karma query
Comment author: Chrysophylax 13 January 2014 01:32:48PM 5 points [-]

Thank you. I was not aware that there is an Open Thread; that is clearly a superior option. My apologies.

Comment author: Chrysophylax 09 January 2014 07:23:28PM 0 points [-]

Did you intend to schedule it to begin at two in the morning?

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