Comment author: DSimon 08 October 2011 01:11:40PM 1 point [-]

who said that rocks don't have feelings?

Well, not to be snippy, but the answer to that question is: neurologists.

Comment author: Clarica 08 October 2011 04:49:30PM 0 points [-]

Since when have neurologists studied rocks? The whimsical suggestion that rocks might have feelings is somewhat akin to the less whimsical suggestion that there are lots of things that may have 'feelings' that we do not easily or usually detect, or can not detect without special equipment.

And some of these feelings (like bio-communication in plants), while measurable, we usually don't care that much about, and empathy for the pain of plants (and animals) may interfere with empathy for the pain of people, if you take compassion fatigue into consideration.

Comment author: EphemeralNight 04 October 2011 04:49:32PM *  5 points [-]

Alright, since no one seems to be understanding my question here, I'll try to reframe it.

(First, to be clear, I'm not having a problem with motivation. I'm not having a problem with indecision. I'm not having a problem with identifying my terminal goal(s).)

To use an analogy, imagine you're playing a video game, and at some point you come to a room where the door shuts behind you and there's no other way out. There's nothing in the room you can interact with, nothing in your inventory that does anything; you poor over every detail of the room, and find there is no way to progress further; the game has glitched, you are stuck. There is literally no way beyond that room and no way out of it except reseting to an earlier save point.

That is how my life feels from the inside: no available paths. (In the glitched video game, it is plausible that there really is no action that will lead to progression beyond the current situation. In real life, not so much.)

Given that it is highly unlikely that this is an accurate Map of the Territory that is the real world, clearly there is a flaw in how I generate my Map in regards to potential paths of advancement in the Territory. It is that cognitive flaw that I wish to correct.

I am asking only for a way to identify and correct that flaw.

Comment author: Clarica 04 October 2011 05:30:35PM -1 points [-]

If the flaw lies in your choices, choose differently. If the flaw lies in your habits, practice better habits. If the flaw lies in your cognitive habits, you must do something higher up on this list in order to be able to develop different cognitive habits.

Your existing habits and choices (and arguably genetics and environment) may not be what created the situation which is becoming intolerable, but they are the easiest thing to work on.

You do not have to worry about making the right change or practices--start with whatever seems easiest. And try not to go against your 'better' judgement.

Comment author: dlthomas 04 October 2011 12:11:43AM 3 points [-]

Most men are not like lukeprog on that point, certainly.

However, lukeprog was not asserting that most men were like him on that point. He was asserting that evolution had contributed for his not liking her for reasons X, Y, and Z. All people are closely enough related that if that were true, then there would be a good chance that evolution had done similarly for other men. So, to the degree that she believed him, the conclusion that it likely applied to other men would follow more strongly than without his assertion.

Comment author: Clarica 04 October 2011 12:32:03AM 3 points [-]

You make a good point, but I doubt she believed his assertion for long, if at all. Though it probably offended her.

I am trying to suggest that lukeprog's assertions about why he didn't feel like he liked her the right amount any more are totally irrelevant to her reaction. Their accuracy is, in fact, arguable.

Evolution, as it applies to men, suggests that just often enough, some of them will try to impregnate someone. Cross-cultural standards of physical beauty in women suggest who most men are most likely to try to approach. This is statistical. "Who wants to date ME" is personal, and there is no proof other than experience.

The fact that he didn't feel like he liked her the right amount to date her anymore is the unarguable point, and there is no way of getting around that.

She sounds like a normal girl and probably had a normal amount of disappointment over the breakup, and maybe an above-average amount of resentment at the suggestion that she might not be as evolutionarily attractive as the next girl.

Comment author: RobertLumley 03 October 2011 08:56:49PM 5 points [-]

I would think that her thinking would be that if evolution made lukeprog not like me because of xyz, then it would make all men not like me because of that. I must not be a likeable person.

That would be bad.

Comment author: Clarica 03 October 2011 11:30:41PM *  2 points [-]

Well, I'm no expert on how women think, but there is no thought control.

This breakup story is so unusual in the amount of rational preparation for it, I'm sure that I would be able to see that most other men are not much like lukeprog, on that point if no other.

I am not sure there is any way to convince someone you do not want to date (at all / any longer) that they are likeable, except by proving it over time.

Comment author: lukeprog 03 October 2011 01:23:59AM 10 points [-]

As Kevin said,

You aren't the target audience for the stock photo, it's a random person seeing Less Wrong for the first time. People like pictures.

As for the picture heteronormatizing the content... it's an explicitly hetero story, because it's my story. Don't you think it'd be weird to have a homosexual couple in the lead photo for my story?

Comment author: Clarica 03 October 2011 08:39:25PM 1 point [-]

I like the photo, but the deviation point is a good one, which you did not address. Was that purposeful?

Comment author: RobertLumley 03 October 2011 03:35:18PM 3 points [-]

Well it's almost definitional. If evolutionary selection pressures were extreme enough to actually make lukeprog that way, then all men are that way. If evolution did it to him, then it did it to everyone. Evolution doesn't discriminate. What's more likely is that evolution didn't actually make him that way, but societal pressures did.

But that's setting aside the fact that most people tend to wildly anthropomorphize evolution...

Comment author: Clarica 03 October 2011 08:32:19PM *  2 points [-]

Can you clarify what the harm is, in her thinking 'just like a man'

Or what her thinking would actually be, if that is not what you're suggesting?

And for the record, I killed that first relationship by telling my BF that I wasn't sure I loved him anymore, but that I didn't actually want to break up. Which was totally true, and had predictable results. I turned a normal healthy and cute math-classics major/computer science nerd into a clingy and demanding person, because I didn't understand why I wasn't happier with myself. He had no recourse to any pat generalizations, like 'just like a woman'.

Comment author: RobertLumley 02 October 2011 02:56:07PM *  10 points [-]

The real harm, in my eyes, is because she will likely generalize that because evolution made you that way it made all men that way, which is likely not true. Actually it's patently untrue for any example I can think of.

Comment author: Clarica 03 October 2011 03:27:56PM 1 point [-]

I don't see any evidence that suggests that she would draw any conclusion about evolution from a breakup like that. Is that in the text or your own conclusion?

(and I must add that though I didn't write a 20 page document for my first breakup, I arguably did no better.)

In response to Belief as Attire
Comment author: Constant2 03 August 2007 05:08:06AM 4 points [-]

"Eliezer's characterization describes a large minority of Americans very well."

All I see there are familiar platitudes, not a description of anybody who thinks about things. All I see, in fact, are familiar formulas employed by politicians. Nor are the formulas necessarily wrong. It should not be hard to see what is cowardly about most terrorist attacks.

American Heritage has a fairly good definition of cowardice: "Ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."

The ignobility is an important factor which other dictionaries tend to miss. But American Heritage misses something that Cambridge has: "a person who is too eager to avoid danger, difficulty or pain"

It does not have to be danger and pain, it can be difficulty. So in a nutshell, a coward is someone who commits a discreditable act in order to avoid a difficulty (which might be pain or danger but might be something else). In the case of terrorists, the discreditable act is an attack on civilians, and the difficulty thereby avoided is the difficulty of engaging the enemy's armed forces. Similarly, it is cowardly to break certain Geneva conventions, for example disguising yourself as, and mixing with, civilians, to thereby shield yourself from the enemy, is cowardly, because you are committing a discreditable act (using civilians as shields) in order to avoid difficulty (greater exposure to enemy fire).

I will quote an old essay on the topic and answer some key points.

http://www.slate.com/id/1008268/

"Perhaps the idea is that it is cowardly to make a sneak attack, especially on a defenseless civilian target, rather than confront an armed enemy face to face. But no one seriously expects Osama Bin Laden to invite the 101st Airborne to fight his terrorist organization on equal terms."

The first sentence is a fair summary of the point I just made, but the second sentence is no answer. Compare the above with the following:

"Perhaps the idea is that rape is forcible sexual intercourse. But no one seriously expects Ugly Albert to get sex any other way than by forcing the girl."

The fact that the only possible way to succeed is discreditable or illegal or immoral, is no answer to the point that it is nevertheless discreditable or illegal or immoral. It is still what it is, even if it is the only way. If the only way to make a mark is a cowardly way, that makes it no less cowardly.

"And besides, the reason we usually consider it cowardly to make a sneak attack is because the attacker avoids facing the consequences."

Not necessarily. As the Chambers dictionary correctly recognized, what is necessary is an avoidance of a difficulty. It does not have to be specifically "facing the consequences".

So it should be fairly easy to see that it is not incorrect to say that the terrorists are cowards. It is furthermore, then, not incorrect to say that if someone says the terrorists are not cowards, then he is wrong.

But backing up, even though I have defended the familiar platitude that terrorist attacks are cowardly, nevertheless I do not think this accurately reflects man in the street thinking on the topic. Rather, it represents an old political formula that has caught on and that hardly makes a ripple. It's about as meaningful as saying "good morning". It is not significant to say it; it would be significant to stop saying it. Same as "good morning." We say that in order to avoid doing anything significant. It is a distant cousin of the "dead metaphor" - a metaphor that has lost its force through overuse. But like the dead metaphor, its overuse does not mean that it is not valid.

Setting this aside, there is also the matter of the habit that some intellectuals have of shocking the bourgeoisie. If you say that the bad guys think that they're the good guys and we're the bad guys, you probably won't raise any eyebrows. But if you make the statement in a way that implies that you agree with the bad guys' assessment, or that you are positioning yourself as a neutral party who favors neither side, then you will probably raise some eyebrows. And based on my own experience, an awful lot of people like to present the rather familiar and tired and unremarkable view that the bad guys think that they're the good guys, in just such a way, so as to maximize their effect on their listener. This seeming undercurrent of support for the enemy is something that can be easily avoided without changing the factual content of what you're saying, but it is in my experience often not avoided, indeed, it seems to be sought out and nurtured. And then, when the predictable reaction occurs, like clockwork Mr. Epater-les-bourgeois loudly complains about the impossibility of making obviously true statements in front of the the foolish masses.

In response to comment by Constant2 on Belief as Attire
Comment author: Clarica 29 September 2011 04:24:38AM 2 points [-]

I agree with your point about "difficulty of engaging the enemy's armed forces". But I still understand the frustrations of suicide bombers, because of the difficulty of significantly or meaningfully engaging some enemy's armed forces. Especially if you respect warriors, but not their guidance.

What is the brave action to take in that case? Simply suicide, and not suicide-attacks? Or better-targeted suicide-attacks? I am befuddled.

I am far more comfortable condemning suicide-attacks as irrational than cowardly.

In response to Belief as Attire
Comment author: michael_vassar3 02 August 2007 06:58:13PM 10 points [-]

Good posts. This series is the first thing in a while to make me really glad to participate here.

I think that the stereotype of Alabama bars is pretty reliable. OTOH, the stereotype of suicide bombers is much much less so. If you read the rhetoric of radical Islam, or for that matter if you read ancient mythology such as Homer or the Egyptian Book of the Dead, you will see people who are occupying a VERY VERY different moral universe from us Platonized Christianized (that includes the secular children of "modern orthodox" Jews) post-Enlightenment Westerners.

In terms of realistic psychology fitting neither the SSSM nor the Evolutionary Psychology brand (which you really should spend more times reading non-leftist criticisms of), the Muslims who flew planes into the World Trade Center undoubtedly saw themselves as heros, but in some sense that we would have a VERY hard time empathizing with or relating to. They are NOT a mirror reflection of ourselves, but genuinely something that has to be understood with empiricism, not empathy and wishful thinking.

Comment author: Clarica 29 September 2011 04:04:06AM 1 point [-]

I like your information, but I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think it is beyond the reach of empathy to understand them as thinking of themselves as heros. Steven_Bukal and TuviaDulin make very persuasive arguments, above. Years later, I admit, but think I remember detecting some empathy for the bombers at the time. Because I was looking for it.

In response to Belief in Belief
Comment author: John_Mark_Rozendaal 27 August 2007 03:26:06AM 9 points [-]

I like Eliezer's essay on belief very much. I've been thinking about the role of belief in religion. (For the sake of full disclosure, my background is Calvinist.) I wonder why Christians say, "We believe in one God," as if that were a particularly strong assertion. Wouldn't it be stronger to say, "We know one God?" What is the difference between belief and knowledge? It seems to me that beliefs are usually based on no data. Most people who believe in a god do so in precisely the same way that they might believe in a dragon in the garage. People are comfortable saying that they know something only when they can refer to supporting data. Believers are valiantly clinging to concepts for which the data is absent. Most people who believe in a god do so in precisely the same way that they might believe in a dragon in the garage.

Regarding the dialogue between the dragon claimant and his challengers, why didn't the challengers simply ask the claimant, "Why do you say that there is an invisible, inaudible, non-respiriating, flour-permeable dragon in your garage?"

Comment author: Clarica 28 September 2011 07:31:36PM 0 points [-]

And also, "How do you know."

Your question is more helpful, of course. Any person who believes that there is a non-evidentiary dragon in a garage will have some way to answer mine, hopefully without going through too much more stress.

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