Comment author: Roko 06 April 2009 09:10:33AM 1 point [-]

There's a distinction between what I believe is more likely to be true, and what I wish were true instead. The null hypothesis is always more likely to be correct than any specific hypothesis. If I have to stick with a very unpredictive hypothesis, I have a decreased ability to predict the world, I will therefore do worse.

In this case, I am fairly sure that the near/far distinction gives good reason to believe that the Israel experiment doesn't contradict the cave man fight: i.e. what people do in far situations can be the opposite of what they do in near situations.

But as to why people root for the underdog, rather than just choosing at random... I am less sure.

The empathy argument has been made independently a few times, and I am starting to see it's merit. But empathy and signalling aren't mutually exclusive. We could be seeing an example of exaption here - the empathy response tended to make people sympathize with the underdog, and this effect was re-enforced because it was actually advantageous - as a signal of virtue and power.

Comment author: Coathangrrr 07 April 2009 12:38:15AM 2 points [-]

<i>If I have to stick with a very unpredictive hypothesis, I have a decreased ability to predict the world, I will therefore do worse.</i>

Not true. If you have a prediction model that is non-random and wrong you will get better results from simple random predictions.

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 06 April 2009 12:54:26AM 7 points [-]

Yes, it could be. But "random side effect of unspecified other optimizations" is a completely general explanation for any trait of any organism, so as a hypothesis it is totally uninformative.

The obvious "random side effect" theory, for underdog-empathy, is that we tend to empathize with agents who feel the way underdogs feel (e.g., in pain, afraid, pulling together their pluck to succeed) regardless of whether the agent who feels that way is an underdog, or feels those emotions for some other reason.

To test this theory: do we in fact feel similarly about people struggling to scale a difficult mountain, or to gather food for the winter in the face of difficulty and starvation risk? Or does our empathy with underdogs (in group conflict situations specifically; not in struggles against non-agent difficulties like mountains) bring out a response that would not be predicted from just the agent's fear/pain/pluck? Also, can our responses to more complex fear/pain/pluck situations (such as the person struggling to avoid starvation) be explained from simpler reactions to the individual components (e.g., the tendency to flinch and grab your thumb when you see someone hit his thumb with a hammer)?

Comment author: Coathangrrr 07 April 2009 12:35:39AM 0 points [-]

I think this is the least wrong post here. If we assume that our pattern recognition ability, which has obvious evolutionary advantages, is the source of empathy, which makes sense to me in terms of individual selection, then we can see that looking at a far situation will trigger certain pattern recognitions, specifically looking at our past experience. Based on my past experience more gain comes from being the underdog and winning than being the assumed winner and winning. Because I can see that, emotionally I will identify with the underdog more often because the outcome will be greater for individuals in that group and people tend to identify with individuals in far populations rather than groups. I'd add that personally being a part of the underdog group and winning would have much more of an impact than being a part of the assumed winning side and winning, much like a gambler remembers the wins more than the losses, and thus I would be pulling for the underdogs.

This can explain why my reasonableness will lead me to support the overdog in close situations. If there is a split in my group and I have to choose which side I'm on pattern recognition helps me realize that I am more likely to come out ahead if I ally with the overdog.(uberhund?) Thus, in such a situation I would be more likely to support the uberhund than the underdog because it directly affects my situation.