Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 16 September 2009 09:00:27PM 0 points [-]

Agreed. I'll leave the original main comment, but after this, creationism (called ID or otherwise) is cause for comment removal.

Comment author: DS3618 17 September 2009 12:31:46AM -11 points [-]

"Agreed. I'll leave the original main comment, but after this, creationism (called ID or otherwise) is cause for comment removal."

I never argued for ID or creationism (the closest I have come is arguing for a more complete understanding of the topic before bashing it), I have been merely pointing out that Evolution has some serious holes. If you believe it so blindly that you can't see the holes then you haven't done your homework. If Darwin was alive today many speculate he would have never bothered to formulate evolution since the unfortunate discovery that cells are more the blobs of protoplasm. I am actually arguing for a re-working of the entire idea of a naturalistic explanation of the world.

But whatever, I give up... you guys win, your bonehead comments have won... I need not waste more time here...

En effet la règle ignorante ici (how's your french?)

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 16 September 2009 09:25:34AM 4 points [-]

DS3618: "Have you ever considered that naturalistic explanations cannot explain DNA, or the Cambrian explosion... I challenge you to explain how through naturalistic processes you can form even the simplest bacteria (which by the way has ~160 kilobases)"

My formula for the origin of life is "RNA world plus micelles".

A micelle is a self-organized sphere of hydrophobic molecules. "RNA world" refers to a stage when you don't have the division of labor between DNA (information) and protein (structure), with RNA instead doing double duty (information from sequence, structure from conformation). Lipids and RNA polymers are capable of forming spontaneously in abiotic circumstances. So the idea is that the lipids mechanically self-organized into populations of micelles, which in turn contained different populations of RNA polymers. RNAs can both reproduce (in that one RNA strand can serve as a template for the formation of a second) and catalytically interact with each other (thus increasing or decreasing the reproduction rate of the other RNA species in a population). Finally one supposes a physical process, such as turbulence, which keeps breaking up these RNA-loaded micelles. Voila, you have a population of protocells subject to natural selection.

This is just a sketch of how biological evolution might get underway, by someone who is not even a biologist. But I don't think it's that hard to understand.

And as for the Cambrian explosion, if you know anything about how tissue differentiation and embyronic development work, I don't see how you could regard it as fundamentally mysterious. Sponges are the primordial multicellular lifeform and they already have the relevant genetic regulatory networks. Once that level of genetic complexity exists, it's not that amazing to see how it could lead to the diversity of multicellular life that we have now. So in a way the question is just, how did we get sponges. I am fond of the theory (promoted by John Mattick and others) that the essential new step involved in the transition to complex multicellularity is the development of a new level of genetic regulation involving transcribed intronic RNAs which never become protein but which do play a regulatory role controlling other genes. The idea is that this extra level of regulatory complexity permitted the transition from homogeneous colonies of single-celled organisms to multicellular organisms with differentiated tissues. But again, the bottom line is that this stuff does not look fundamentally mysterious. There's plenty to discover about how it might have happened and how it did happen, but it's not baffling, let alone naturalistically impossible.

Comment author: DS3618 16 September 2009 08:28:28PM -4 points [-]

Huh?

"A micelle is a self-organized sphere of hydrophobic molecules. "RNA world" refers to a stage when you don't have the division of labor between DNA (information) and protein (structure), with RNA instead doing double duty (information from sequence, structure from conformation)."

Well thanks for the lesson in RNA-world hypothesis (did you dig that up on Wikipedia?) with your little addition of Micelles (also I assume gathered from Wikipedia). But it misses the point which is that RNA contains a very specific sequence of molecules that form even the simplest bacteria. For life to exist you have to have the specific arrangement of biomolecules, since RNA and DNA are made from a small set of molecules 4 to be precise natural chemical attraction does not explain the unique ordering.

I am going to ignore your response to the Cambrian explosion since you did not understand what I was going for.

The point is that within the Cambrian Explosion we see the formation of many of the major phyla with no evidence of intermediate species. The other issue is that we don't have the kind of inter-species plasticity which one would expect with a common ancestry.

Comment author: prase 13 September 2009 02:26:38PM *  0 points [-]

I am smarter then almost everyone here

you are just hobbiest

Nevertheless not enough smart to get the orthography right. I don't usually criticise typos, but your way of arguing calls for that.

Honestly, what effect do you expect from declaring that you are superior and able to prove it? This is clearly not the way how to win debates. That's basically why people can think you are a troll.

Comment author: DS3618 16 September 2009 07:56:23AM -4 points [-]

...strams fo tol a nekat evah tsum taht hctac ruoy no stargnoC .ekatsim a edam I ,tniop dooG

...uoy htiw dehsinif ma I kniht I neht tog ev'uoy tseb eht si taht fi oS

Comment author: DS3618 16 September 2009 07:46:10AM -20 points [-]

Did you read what you wrote here?

"An interesting collection of molecules occupied a certain tide pool 3.5 to 4.5 billion years ago, interesting because the molecule collection built copies of itself out of surrounding molecules, and the resulting molecule collections also replicated while accumulating beneficial mutations. Those molecule collections satisfied a high-level functional criterion called "genetic fitness", and it happened by pure chance."

So essentially ignoring the rest of your post because it just goes into more "detail" we have some molecules + lots of magic=the world as we know it. Then followed by a big please accept my straw-man argument therefore the Singularity Summit is necessary. Does that about sum it up?

Just an aside: Have you ever considered that naturalistic explanations cannot explain DNA, or the Cambrian explosion. Have you ever looked at chemistry, quantum mechanics,... and even tried to figure out how that could work? What about considering the early earth and the available chemicals which are essentially what comes out of a volcano? If you have then I challenge you to explain how through naturalistic processes you can form even the simplest bacteria (which by the way has ~160 kilobases).

Comment author: wedrifid 12 September 2009 11:12:41AM -1 points [-]

Humor me

No. You are arrogant, ill informed and condescending. Basically, a troll.

Comment author: DS3618 13 September 2009 01:23:15AM -8 points [-]

"No. You are arrogant, ill informed and condescending. Basically, a troll."

Ok... fine, I am arrogant but thats because I am smarter then almost everyone here...(and I have the IQ, accomplishments... to prove it) I am condescending because most of you are just hobbiest trying to brown-nose your way into EY's good graces.

Ill informed?

Hmmmm..... coming from people who can't even identify a re-invention of the wheel when they see it or understand the opposition to make a cogent argument... fine... I take that as a compliment.

Trust me I am not a troll, just because I say things which you guys don't like doesn't make me a troll. If you want to find good examples of real trolls go to google groups...

Cheers

Comment author: DS3618 12 September 2009 01:09:33AM -10 points [-]

Humor me: I want to take an informal poll:

Questions (just yes or no) 1.) How many of you are in science fields? (by that I mean actually doing research, publishing papers etc.)

2.) How many of you have ever built an AI video game or other?

3.) How many of you have worked on or with or designed automated reasoning and or theorem proving software or algorithms?

4.) How many of you is this just a hobby?

I think those will do for now. (I am just curious from reading the post and comments which apparently someone didn't like my observation in my other comment which was valid)

Comment author: DS3618 11 September 2009 05:38:38AM 0 points [-]

I think you're re-inventing the wheel here.

"This towards the goal of creating "rationality augmentation" software. In the short term, my suspicion is that such software would look like a group of existing tools glued together with human practices."

Look at current work in AI, automated reasoning systems, and automated theorem proving.

Comment author: anonym 09 September 2009 05:14:40AM *  1 point [-]

Intelligent Design: does not necessitate the Christian God and centers around the idea of irreducible complexity.

I guess you didn't read the wikipedia article I linked to:

The concept of intelligent design originated in response to the 1987 United States Supreme Court Edwards v. Aguillard ruling involving separation of church and state. Its first significant published use was in Of Pandas and People, a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes.

That textbook [the later 1993 edition] was the first significant published use of the term. It's the same book where they started with a creationism book and used hundreds of passages verbatim by replacing "creationism" with "intelligent design". It was obviously a ploy to repackage creationism in a way that wouldn't run foul of separation of church and state, and would thus allow it to be taught in public schools. Just as obviously, if "intelligent design" centered around the idea of irreducible complexity, why did it not figure prominently in the 1989 edition of the intelligent design textbook?

Comment author: DS3618 09 September 2009 11:29:31PM -4 points [-]

"I guess you didn't read the wikipedia article I linked to"

If your knowledge of this comes from Wikipedia no wonder your clueless... read the links I posted: "Intelligent Design adherents believe only that the complexity of the natural world could not have occurred by chance. Some intelligent entity must have created the complexity, they reason, but that "designer" could in theory be anything or anyone."

As I said not necessarily the Christian God.

"Creationism is focused on defending a literal reading of the Genesis account, usually including the creation of the earth by the Biblical God a few thousand years ago. Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design is agnostic regarding the source of design and has no commitment to defending Genesis, the Bible or any other sacred text. Instead, intelligent design theory is an effort to empirically detect whether the "apparent design" in nature observed by biologists is genuine design (the product of an organizing intelligence) or is simply the product of chance and mechanical natural laws. This effort to detect design in nature is being adopted by a growing number of biologists, biochemists, physicists, mathematicians, and philosophers of science at American colleges and universities. Scholars who adopt a design approach include biochemist Michael Behe of Lehigh University, microbiologist Scott Minnich at the University of Idaho, and mathematician William Dembski at Baylor University. (3)"

From the discovery institute... again as I said the two are different...

http://www.intelligentdesign.org/faq.php

Do your homework...

Any further commentary please direct to the email address I failed to provide...

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 08 September 2009 04:03:39PM 4 points [-]

Seriously I don't agree with it but at least before I go off half-cocked I actually bother to educate myself.

Which is a serious mistake: there is too much gibberish in the world to learn it all before turning down.

Comment author: DS3618 08 September 2009 04:12:33PM -14 points [-]

Wow, you guys truly are useless...

Apparently there is to much information that is above you head since you guys follow EY who can't do the math for QM.

"Which is a serious mistake: there is too much gibberish in the world to learn it all before turning down."

So thats why you guys can't do technical work, and don't understand advanced math... I get it... its above you... cool...

Well whatever I am finished... I don't care what you do... If average people like ones here want to look foolish great what do I care...

So have fun winning your popularity contest to get a good boy from EY...

Cheers

Comment author: anonym 08 September 2009 05:01:17AM 2 points [-]

ID is not different than creationism, it just uses different terminology with some additional quasi-scientific obfuscation. Consider the creationist textbook, Of Pandas and People:

... a comparison of an early draft of Of Pandas and People to a later 1987 copy showed how in hundreds of instances the word "creationism" had been replaced by "intelligent design", and "creationist" simply replaced by "intelligent design proponent".

Can you think of any other 2 intellectual theories where you could take a book written about one and do a global search-and-replace on a few key terms in order to yield a good launching point for a book about the second theory?

Comment author: DS3618 08 September 2009 03:56:06PM -8 points [-]

Wrong....

http://www.discovery.org/a/1329

http://www.slate.com/id/2118388/

Again the profound ignorance you guys have of the ideas you disagree with comes out. Its a common mistake to say they are the same with different terms look at the actual view points and you find they are not.

Educate yourself...

Creationism: based on the Bible and the Christian God

Intelligent Design: does not necessitate the Christian God and centers around the idea of irreducible complexity

Seriously I don't agree with it but at least before I go off half-cocked I actually bother to educate myself.

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