Comment author: Alicorn 23 January 2010 11:13:51PM 1 point [-]

is it always rational to make others believe things that are true?

This depends on your values. If chief among them is "honesty", and you caveat the "make others believe things that are true" with a "for the right reasons" clause, then probably, yeah. If honesty has to compete with things like keeping your property, maybe not.

If I am playing the Prisoner's Dilemma with someone (just once, so no tit-for-tat or anything), and I have the choice of making my opponent either act rationally or irrationally, the rational thing for me to do is make him act irrationally.

I'm not sure what the content of "making your opponent behave (ir)rationally" is supposed to be. It's certainly not an uncontroversial tidbit of received wisdom that the rational thing to do in the Prisoner's Dilemma is to defect, which is what you seem to imply.

Comment author: DaveInNYC 23 January 2010 11:20:14PM -1 points [-]

I'm not sure what the content of "making your opponent behave (ir)rationally" is >supposed to be. It's certainly not an uncontroversial tidbit of received wisdom that the >rational thing to do in the Prisoner's Dilemma is to defect, which is what you seem to >imply.

Exactly, if I was able to make him act irrationally, he would not defect, whereas I would. And if the definition of rationality is that it makes you win, then it can be perfectly rational to have others act irrationally (i.e. believe wrong things).

Comment author: Alicorn 23 January 2010 10:37:05PM *  5 points [-]

We think that religions are false, and a shared priority of Less Wrong denizens is to believe things that are true instead. I'll readily admit that religion has some good effects. Many people find it comforting; it's inspired great works of art and music and architecture; it does a lot of work to funnel money to charitable causes, some of which are very helpful; it encourages community-building; and it has historically served as a cultural touchstone to enable the development of some very powerful iconography and tropes.

It's still false.

If you like the good things about religion, there are alternatives (although most of them only work piecemeal). For instance, there's Ethical Culture, which fills in the community gap a departing religion can leave.

Comment author: DaveInNYC 23 January 2010 10:58:50PM 1 point [-]

We think that religions are false, and a shared priority of Less Wrong denizens is to >believe things that are true instead

You'll get no argument from me that religions are false. You will get practically no argument from me that it makes sense to want to believe things that are true. What I question is, is it always rational to make others believe things that are true? If I leave my lights on when I leave the house so that would-be robbers think I am home when I am not, I am making a rational decision to make others believe something that is false.

If I am playing the Prisoner's Dilemma with someone (just once, so no tit-for-tat or anything), and I have the choice of making my opponent either act rationally or irrationally, the rational thing for me to do is make him act irrationally.

Comment author: orthonormal 19 January 2010 05:22:15AM 8 points [-]

Make everyone rational, and they will do the rational thing, i.e. defect when faced with a prisoner's dilemma (or tragedy of the commons, or whatever).

You assume too much.

Also, have you spent any time searching for a third alternative before deciding that religion is the only thing that can keep people from destroying each other?

Comment author: DaveInNYC 23 January 2010 10:30:11PM 1 point [-]

I have wondered for many years what a good alternative would be, and have not been able to come up with one. Now that in itself doesn't mean anything; just because I can't think of one does not mean there isn't one. But given the antipathy of most on this site to religion (as evidenced by my comment getting dinged 4 times for merely suggesting that religion, though irrational, may be socially beneficial), I would think there would be posts upon posts explaining better alternatives. I have not seen them.

It seems to me that many rationalists hate religion so much, that they are loathe to admit it has any benefits at all, even if those benefits have NOTHING to do with the original reason for the loathing. It reminds me of a few years ago when someone said something to the effect of "Hitler's army had great uniforms" (I don't remember the exact details). Of course, the person had to end up apologizing a million times over, lost her job, etc. even though she was in no way endorsing Hitler's horrendous actions.

Again, I am not even saying that religion is necessarily worth keeping. But the unquestioned assumption that it would be desirable to get rid of it does not seem to get a lot of scrutiny around here.

Comment author: DaveInNYC 19 January 2010 12:45:38AM -3 points [-]

I would dispute the (implied) part of this post that suggests removing religion would necessarily be a good thing. Besides being a way to explain rainbows and earthquakes and whatnot, it is also a "solution" to the prisoner's dilemma. For explanations of physical phenomena, religion is no longer needed. But the "morality" problem is still there. Make everyone rational, and they will do the rational thing, i.e. defect when faced with a prisoner's dilemma (or tragedy of the commons, or whatever). Getting rid of religion may certainly have its benefits, but I would not be too sure it would be an overall good thing.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 25 October 2009 04:57:00PM 4 points [-]

[This is not a quote, but a meta discussion.]

I find it curious that the quotes posted here have higher votes on average than the usual discussion comments, and it makes me think that I have a below-average appreciation for quotations. Why do people value them, I wonder?

Comment author: DaveInNYC 26 October 2009 11:52:58PM 4 points [-]

I suspect it is because the main post refers to quotes being "voted up/down separately," i.e. it puts it in people's minds that they are supposed to vote on the quotes. I do find it funny that I got 12 karma points for cutting/pasting a quote; C.S. Lewis deserves the karma points, not me (as evidenced by the fact that I have gotten a grand total of 1 point from my own original posts). If one wanted to game the karma system, posting pithy quotes is the way to go.

Comment author: DaveInNYC 24 October 2009 06:53:52PM 31 points [-]

I have met people who exaggerate the differences [between the morality of different cultures], because they have not distinguished between differences of morality and differences of belief about facts. For example, one man said to me, "Three hundred years ago people in England were putting witches to death. Was that what you call the Rule of Human Nature or Right Conduct?" But surely the reason we do not execute witches is that we do not believe there are such things. If we did-if we really thought that there were people going about who had sold themselves to the devil and received supernatural powers from him in return and were using these powers to kill their neighbours or drive them mad or bring bad weather, surely we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, then these filthy quislings did. There is no difference of moral principle here: the difference is simply about matter of fact. It may be a great advance in knowledge not to believe in witches: there is no moral advance in not executing them when you do not think they are there. You would not call a man humane for ceasing to set mousetraps if he did so because he believed there were no mice in the house.

-C.S. Lewis

Comment author: DaveInNYC 21 October 2009 06:00:09PM *  6 points [-]

Kasparov competed against Deep Blue to steer the chessboard into a region where he won - knights and bishops were only his pawns

Were you trying to mix the literal and metaphorical here? Because I think that just his pawns were his pawns :)

In response to Timeless Control
Comment author: DaveInNYC 07 June 2008 04:52:21PM 0 points [-]

All the ideas expressed in this post, as well as the "timeless physics" one, seems amazingly obvious to me, and has for all of my adult life, and compared to a lot of OB posters, I am not that bright. Since I normally find many of Elizer's posts extremely counterintuitive and/or hard to grasp, I've got to ask the question: am I missing something here? Is Elizer saying something so mind-boggling out of this world that I do not even realize he is saying it?

In response to Thou Art Physics
Comment author: DaveInNYC 06 June 2008 06:27:54PM 3 points [-]

I know this is just re-iterating what Caledonian and Ben Jones said, but too have meaningful discussion on this subject you have to taboo "free will" and come up with a specific description of what you are trying to figure out. The most basic concept of free will is "being able to do what you desire to do," and that is not affected one whit by determinism, or MWI, or God knowing what you are going to do in advance, etc. I know there are a lot of other more sophisticated-sounding discussions regarding this ("ah, but can you choose to desire something else", etc) but I have yet to hear of a meaningful definition of "free will" that is affected at all by such things as MWI.

BTW, it drives me nuts when people say "well if we do not have free will, why punish criminals?" (or "we pretend free will exists so that we can punish criminals", etc). We punish criminals so that fewer crimes happen. Whether you think those criminals have "free will" has nothing to do with the results we get by punishing them.

In response to Timeless Identity
Comment author: DaveInNYC 03 June 2008 05:59:53PM 1 point [-]

I have been seriously considering cryonics; if the MWI is correct, I figure that even if there is a vanishingly small chance of it working, "I" will still wake up in one of the worlds where it does work. Then again, even if I do not sign up, there are plenty of worlds out there where I do. So signing up is less of an attempt to live forever as it is an attempt to line up my current existence with the memory of the person who is revived, if that makes any sense. To put it another way, if there is a world where I procrastinate signing up until right before I die, the person who is revived will have 99.9% of the same memories as someone who did not sign up at all, so if I don't end up signing up I do not lose much.

FWIW, I sent an email to Alcor a while ago that was never responded to, which makes me wonder if they have their act together enough to preserve me for the long haul.

On a related note, is there much agreement on what is "possible" as far as MWI goes? For example, in a classical universe if I know the position/momentum of every particle, I can predict the outcome of a coin flip with 1.0 probability. If we throw quantum events in the mix, how much does this change? I figure the answer should be in the range of (1.0 - tiny number) and (0.5 + tiny number).

View more: Prev | Next