Comment author: spriteless 10 June 2015 04:07:59AM 4 points [-]

Meta: You might want to tag this as fiction so it is searchable later.

Comment author: Dias 10 June 2015 11:18:15PM 1 point [-]

Good idea; done!

Comment author: minorin 04 May 2015 03:44:30AM 2 points [-]

Presumably most people would agree that there are people who are confused about their sexuality.

"Confused about their sexuality" is a particularly uncharitable characterization of a transgender person. Many are not confused, rather absolutely certain. Unless you're using the term "confused" as a polite way of indicating that you believe such a person to be mistaken or delusional, in which case you would be begging the question.

By the way, gender is not the same thing as sexuality.

It would only be a counterexample to that model if the student was correct, but whether or not the student is correct is precisely what we are discussing.

If one models gender as a boolean switch that can be set to either "male" or "female", and encounters an individual who has a combination of "male" and "female" characteristics, their model may not accommodate the new observation. I have watched people (who I previously considered fairly sane) break into a yelling fit when confronted with someone undergoing a gender transition, demanding to know their "real" gender and hurling insults when the response was not what they expected.

Comment author: Dias 10 June 2015 01:10:48AM 3 points [-]

in which case you would be begging the question.

No, I am explaining how the appearance of transgender people is consistent with the conservative view: they are simply confused. I am not assuming anything.

Comment author: minorin 03 May 2015 06:30:16PM *  2 points [-]

I don't know the LessWrong-like answer, so I can only offer you the human, empathic answer.

Based on the phrasing of your question:

whether someone born a male but who identifies as female is indeed female

and the fact that you have posted it to LessWrong, I understand it to be a question about constructing a useful and consistent model of the human condition, rather than about respecting an actual or hypothetical human being. If so, I think you are asking the wrong question.

Your students want to learn from you, but on a more basic level, they want to feel safe with you. If you have a trans student, or a student with a trans friend/relative, she is likely to take your answer to this question very personally. Your choice boils down to whether you offer a personal welcome (by recognizing your student's identity) or a personal affront (by implying that you have more authority than she does to determine who she "really is").

I should add that it is a common failure mode for humans, when confronted with a counterexample to their existing model of the human condition, to insist that their model is correct and that the fellow human they are dealing with is a bad data point. As well as rude and demeaning, this approach is irrational and intellectually dishonest.

Comment author: Dias 04 May 2015 02:14:40AM 4 points [-]

a counterexample to their existing model of the human condition

I'm not sure how this could be counted as a counterexample to anyone's model. Presumably most people would agree that there are people who are confused about their sexuality. It would only be a counterexample to that model if the student was correct, but whether or not the student is correct is precisely what we are discussing.

If James agreed with the student, this would not be a counterexample to his beliefs, and if he disagrees with the student, it he would not agree that they represented a counterexample to the model.

Comment author: James_Miller 03 May 2015 03:44:41AM 2 points [-]

What is the LessWrong-like answer to whether someone born a male but who identifies as female is indeed female? Relevant to my life because of this. I'm likely to be asked about this if for no other reason than students seeing how I handle such a question.

Comment author: Dias 04 May 2015 02:09:10AM 5 points [-]

What does it mean to be female? It has to be something such that babies, animals and people in tribal cultures can be classified as female or not. Lets call this property, that baby girls, hens and women in hunter-gatherer tribes share, and baby boys etc. do not, property P. People who identify as female are presumably claiming they have property P, and presumably think this is a substantive claim.

Now, could P be something such that merely believing you had property P, made you have property P? Certainly there are some properties like this:

  • X has P if and only if ( X has two x chromosomes OR X believes ( X has property P ) )

but I think this is clearly unsatisfactory. For example, it would mean that an ordinary young boy who, upon being taught about gender for the first time, was momentarily mistaken and thought he was female, would instantly become female. And it would mean that transwomen were asserting a disjunction of a falsehood and a weird recursive clause.

There are social-role based alternatives, along the lines of

  • X has P if and only if ( X wishes to be treated in the typical manner of people with property P )

but this doesn't work for Tomboys, who wish to be treated broadly like boys but are nonetheless definitely girls. Nor does it work for extreme feminists, who do not wish women (including themselves) to be treated in the typical way women are treated.

Now, whether believing something is sufficient to make it true is of course a separate issue from what is politically prudent of you to say. My guess is that your students would ask you this question have a few motivations:

  • If you say that the map is not the territory, they can safely reject you as an outdated and uncaring reactionary, and will reject what you say on other subjects.
  • If you say that believing things makes them true, they can say "even our ultra-conservative republican lecturer agrees".

My advice to you is to say 'mu'. Ask your students what they mean by female, or why they are asking. Then you can respond in the correct manner according to their definition, pointing out that if they don't like the answer, maybe they didn't really mean that definition.

Comment author: philh 13 April 2015 09:01:03AM 1 point [-]

FWIW, I unsubbed from MR shortly after subscribing. It kind of felt like reading through someone else's RSS feed, with small amounts of commentary which often assumed more economic literacy than I actually have.

Comment author: Dias 13 April 2015 10:54:56PM 2 points [-]

I think of it as outsourcing my RSS feed.

Obviously YMMV; I work in investment.

Comment author: Dias 12 April 2015 11:40:21PM 15 points [-]
Comment author: Dias 12 April 2015 11:37:47PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: Dias 12 April 2015 11:37:12PM 8 points [-]
Comment author: Dias 12 April 2015 11:36:11PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: Dias 12 April 2015 11:35:49PM 2 points [-]

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