Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 09:22:55AM *  4 points [-]

Well, I wonder how global warming view correlates with correct solving of problems involving Bayesian reasoning, and things like monty hall puzzle, as well as bunch of other problems that you get wrong by a fallacy. It may be more correlated than religiosity, in which case it would be a better test. Or it can be less correlated, in which case it would be a worse test. You know, we can test experimentally what is a better test.

Comment author: smk 17 March 2012 05:52:03AM 6 points [-]

Not one of my favorites. I'm tempted to stick this one in a mental category called "Eliezer's BDSM Posts"--you know, the ones where he says he likes to imagine living in a world where various things are deliberately made difficult/painful/scary and everyone goes around wearing black leather vests (ok, I made up the part about the vests). Also a lot of his fun theory posts would go in this category.

Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 09:03:52AM *  2 points [-]

Well yea, but i think he has a good point. The popularizations really got out of hand lately, dumbing things down to the point where stupid person would want to do science (and a smart won't as much as before; we try to pursue things that we have special talents at; make it look like everyone can do it, and you just decrease the incentive for those few who actually can)

Comment author: Yvain 17 March 2012 12:42:19AM 6 points [-]

Now I'm curious why, as far as I know, no animal has ever evolved an eye in the back of its head. You mention bipedality and descent from trees, but why wouldn't a gazelle or a fly or a small fish get an advantage from one?

Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 08:48:39AM *  6 points [-]

Gazelle can afford to move it's eyes to sides of the head (not being a predator), the fly has near omni-directional vision.

The predators, however, have a problem - they can't move the eyes to sides of the head, because that will lose the sharp binocular vision they need to stalk the prey. So it is predatory species that would benefit the most from a rear view eye. The chameleon evolved very peculiar eyes, but that's the only solution the predatory vertebrates got.

The spookfish evolved rear view mirrors that it uses to look down and up at same time. As well, there is parietal eye, but this one is very ancient and traces all the way back to time when ancestors of those animals were more transparent and it was a straightforward adaptation to add light sensitivity to some cells in the brain.

It is extremely difficult to evolve eye on back of the head. It's rare dumb luck, it takes a lot of generations, and existing eyes don't end up duplicated (except in insects and spiders etc which apparently have more flexible coding for eyes; but even in those this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight).

The point of the example is that it is not enough to show that something is advantageous, to show that it is possible to evolve. Furthermore, thanks for bringing up the gazelles - that serves as an example of how evolution really solves the rear-view problem. It doesn't create new photosensitive modules, or replicate existing ones. It just moves the eyes to sides of the head. Keep in mind that eyes, developmentally, are modules of the brain.

The evolutionary psychologists don't take that empirical knowledge of the ways of evolution into account in any way; that's why i would say they are misusing word 'evolution' to mean 'magic'; the word evolution ought to encompass our knowledge of how evolution works, whereas the magic can do anything.

Comment author: Vladimir_M 14 March 2012 04:03:22AM *  59 points [-]

There are also a host of other well-respected exceptions to free speech, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

I wonder how many people would use this example nowadays if they knew that it comes from a WW1-era U.S. Supreme Court opinion upholding a ten year prison sentence for sedition against an anti-war activist -- whose crime was to distribute pamphlets arguing that military conscription is unconstitutional under the 13th Amendment, which prohibits "involuntary servitude."

(By the way, speaking of slippery slopes, the following year the same court upheld another ten year conviction for a speech whose content was carefully crafted to remain within the bounds of the sedition laws, but which was still judged to be illegal on the grounds of intent and indirect implication.)

Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 08:35:56AM 1 point [-]

Wow, man, awesome kudos for this link. The slope indeed slips the other way; once you allow the supreme court to make fire in the theatre analogies, you can start prosecuting people for 'sediction', which is in direct contradiction with the principle of free speech as necessary for the liberty of a free state.

Comment author: MileyCyrus 17 March 2012 05:00:08AM 17 points [-]

Couldn't the alien argue that slippery slopes slip both ways? If we start allowing Holocaust denial, soon it will be legal to yell "fire!" in a theater.

Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 08:07:00AM *  0 points [-]

I've heard it argued this way.

I've also started an argument on some other forum, to test some ideas, with regards to the 'harm principle' (in law). Most of the laws of free countries do conform to harm principle, even though it is not in constitution and a few laws don't (usually for quite bad reason and with very ineffective enforcement). But if you try to bring it up you get slippery slope arguments along the lines of "if we start legalizing harmless behaviours we'd have to legalize driving on other side of the road". Try talking to authoritarians and you can see them argue the slippery slopes the other way.

It must be noted though that there's much longer way to slip in the direction of disallowing speech, than in the direction of allowing speech.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 16 March 2012 11:45:37PM *  1 point [-]

Also, the differences between chimp and human are pretty consistent with plain increase in the volume (and number of neurons), if you control for, hmm, cultural differences.

You seem to be making a mistake that a lot of people without experience programing computers make, namely that merely adding computational power without improving the algorithm is sufficient to generate (Edit: useful) new behaviors. This is especially not the case with the kind of ad hoc algorithms evolution tends to generate. You're going to need new or at least improved algorithms, and if you're evolving new algorithms, they're going to be adapted to the environment you're evolving in.

Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 02:36:28AM *  0 points [-]

Who are you to say that I am making a mistake that a lot of people without experience programming computers make? Adjust your priors: I am successful software programmer, working in computer graphics, for quite a long time. That's how i earn my living. In my life i wrote all sorts of software (of course not literally all, but still rather significant coverage). I'd say I am not making a mistake that a lot of people with little experience programming would make.

The whole point is that evolution is not generating most of the algorithms. Evolution generated a few, including a very powerful learning algorithm, which took very long time (note that power doesn't equate to complexity; evolution itself is not very complex but is rather powerful). The very powerful learning algorithm allows to adapt to environment on-spot, as well as to the brain modifications. There are algorithms adding computer power to which allows to do 'new tricks'. The new human behaviours, too, are not all that new - different in the extent, rather than in essence. We - not even all of us, some of us - search massively larger solution spaces than chimps do, but there isn't a great deal of evidence that we do anything principally different (and especially not all humans).

edit: One other thing. We do have example of how novel modules evolve. Entire new areas of brain, like neocortex, appear - over a very large number of generations. What has happened in the small brained hominid to human evolution, though, is nothing like this. The number of generations is massively smaller, and the brain is pretty much up-scaled version of the original brain. Note that this happened against strong pressure for small brain size (childbirth difficulties)

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 17 March 2012 12:39:08AM 8 points [-]

Could humans have evolved a parietal eye (or perhaps a "pineal eye") which then migrated to the back of the head?

It is worth saying, though tautologically true, that evolution can't do what evolution can't do, and that the genetic code for new structures and functions has to be combinatorially accessible to the evolving genome. But the modularity of genetic regulatory networks (GRNs) can produce big rearrangements at a single step: redirection of a single "pointer variable" could see hardwired data structures and algorithms evolved within one sensory/cognitive module suddenly duplicated within a new brain region. (See the idea of William Calvin and Derek Bickerton that nested syntax resulted from transposing tree structures used in arm-hand-finger coordination to vocal communication.) Alternatively, polyploid mutations can duplicate at the genetic level a whole GRN, which permits divergent evolution of recycled algorithms - the tree structures for syntax could then be modified without impairing manual dexterity.

So your point is valid, but don't underestimate the power of evolution!

Comment author: Dmytry 17 March 2012 02:23:21AM *  0 points [-]

Big rearrangements at a single step leave you with disabled individuals. That's how we didn't evolve the third eye, too.

It is certainly possible to evolve a third eye on back of the head, but that takes several steps going in different direction, a very huge number of generations, and it most certainly is extremely unlikely in such brief timeframe.

One shouldn't invoke that sort of change unless one first demonstrates that this extremely unlikely path is positively the most likely way in which nested syntax can arise. They didn't demonstrate so; they just have very strong prejudice; that's what rationalizations are.

The neuroplasticity being what it is, it appears we don't need conjunctions of multiple highly unlikely events such as this as explanation for the nested syntax.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 16 March 2012 10:38:00PM 3 points [-]

Groups of neurons have to connect in the new ways - the neurons on one side must express binding proteins, which would guide the axons towards them; the weights of the connections have to be adjusted. Majority of the genes expressed in neurons, affect all of the neurons; some affect just a group, but there is no mechanism by which an entirely arbitrary group's bindings may be controlled from the DNA in 1 mutation. The difficulties are not unlike those of an extra eye. This, combined with above-mentioned speed constraints, imposes severe limitations on which sorts of wiring modifications, and ultimately, behaviours that humans could have evolved during the hunter gatherer environment. Even very simple things - such as preference for particular body shape of the mates - have extreme hidden implementation complexity in terms of the DNA modifications leading up to the wiring leading up to the altered preferences. Wiring the brain for a specific fallacy is anything but simple. It may not be as time consuming/impossible as adding an extra eye, but it is still no little feat.

This seems reasonable until you realize that we evolved from chimp brains to human brains during the time period in question, this is a much larger change than the minor adaptations evolutionary psychologists talk about.

Comment author: Dmytry 16 March 2012 10:58:46PM *  0 points [-]

It's not about size of the change, it's about the complexity of the change. Increasing the brain size by four times is not a very complex change; some minor tweaks aren't either. edit: Also, the differences between chimp and human are pretty consistent with plain increase in the volume (and number of neurons), if you control for, hmm, cultural differences. You can teach chimps sign language; chimps can use and invent tools. We do it better, of course - larger brains are more powerful, perhaps the longer childhood also helps, etc.

Comment author: fburnaby 16 March 2012 09:39:08PM *  1 point [-]

Be suspicious of overly bold claims in evolutionary psychology - check and mostly agreed, though see Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea for something that might slightly re-inflate the idea of good ev-psych.

But I don't see how your suggestion to think about minds as "lined slates" follows. It seems to not follow even more after having read your argument. What reason do be have to think that our minds have evolved to be very flexible general learning processes? Your argument makes me imagine my mind as the opposite - after reading your argument, out brains look even more like they should be a bunch of wires, randomly attached.

In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural network to play Tic Tac Toe". "Why is the net wired randomly?" asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play." Minsky shut his eyes: "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So the room will be empty." At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Comment author: Dmytry 16 March 2012 10:18:22PM *  3 points [-]

A randomly wired network still can have different number of short range vs long range connections, vertical vs horizontal connections etc.

Brain is not randomly wired; it consists of cortical columns - a basic unit replicated over the brain - and some of the wiring is very specific. The axons can very accurately find their destinations. Different areas of brain can be built with different parameters of the network organisation. There are good reasons not to adopt tabula rasa - blank slate - that's why i propose the slates prepared for specific work, in minor ways. We certainly can evolve different fur on different parts of our bodies - and so we can evolve different network properties in different areas of brain. But if you want to link specific sets of neurons in specific ways from the DNA to build a circuit that performs an evolved function - all chances are you can not do that, as there isn't any genes which express just in those neurons.

The lined slate example is to make it clear that I am not arguing in favour of complete 'tabula rasa'.

With regards to our brains being learning machines, the neuroplasticity is good evidence that parts of brain can learn the tasks not originally intended, at the levels of performance close to the normal, suggesting only minor innate specialization.

Evolutionary psychology: evolving three eyed monsters

14 Dmytry 16 March 2012 09:28PM

Summary

We should not expect evolution of complex psychological and cognitive adaptations in the timeframe in which, morphologically, animal bodies can only change by very little. The genetic alteration to the cognition for speech shouldn't be expected to be dramatically more complex than the alteration of vocal cords.

Evolutions that did not happen

When humans descended from trees and became bipedal, it would have been very advantageous to have an eye or two on back of the head, for detection of predators and to protect us against being back-stabbed by fellow humans. This is why all of us have an extra eye on the back of our heads, right? Ohh, we don't. Perhaps the mate selection resulted in the poor reproductive success of the back-eyed hominids. Perhaps the tribes would kill any mutant with eyes on the back.

There are pretty solid reasons why none the above has happened, and can't happen in such timeframes. The evolution does not happen simply because the trait is beneficial, or because there's a niche to be filled. A simple alteration to the DNA has to happen, causing a morphological change which results in some reproductive improvement; then DNA has to mutate again, etc. The unrelated nearly-neutral mutations may combine resulting in an unexpected change (for example, the wolves have many genes that alter their size; random selection of genes produces approximately normal distribution of the sizes; we can rapidly select smaller dogs utilizing the existing diversity). There's no such path rapidly leading up to an eye on back of the head. The eye on back of the head didn't evolve because evolution couldn't make that adaptation.

The speed of evolution is severely limited. The ways in which evolution can work, too, are very limited. In the time in which we humans have got down from the trees, we undergone rather minor adaptation in the shape of our bodies, as evident from the fossil record - and that is the degree of change we should expect in rest of our bodies including our brains.

The correct application of evolutionary theory should be entirely unable to account for outrageous hypothetical like extra eye on back of our heads (extra eye can evolve, of course, but would take very long time). Evolution is not magic. The power of scientific theory is that it can't explain everything, but only the things which are true - that's what makes scientific theory useful for finding the things that are true, in advance of observation. That is what gives science it's predictive power. That's what differentiates science from religion. The power of not explaining the wrong things.

Evolving the instincts

What do we think it would take to evolve a new innate instinct? To hard-wire a cognitive mechanism?

Groups of neurons have to connect in the new ways - the neurons on one side must express binding proteins, which would guide the axons towards them; the weights of the connections have to be adjusted. Majority of the genes expressed in neurons, affect all of the neurons; some affect just a group, but there is no known mechanism by which an entirely arbitrary group's bindings may be controlled from the DNA in 1 mutation. The difficulties are not unlike those of an extra eye. This, combined with above-mentioned speed constraints, imposes severe limitations on which sorts of wiring modifications humans could have evolved during the hunter gatherer environment, and ultimately the behaviours that could have evolved. Even very simple things - such as preference for particular body shape of the mates - have extreme hidden implementation complexity in terms of the DNA modifications leading up to the wiring leading up to the altered preferences. Wiring the brain for a specific cognitive fallacy is anything but simple. It may not always be as time consuming/impossible as adding an extra eye, but it is still no little feat.

Junk evolutionary psychology

It is extremely important to take into account the properties of evolutionary process when invoking evolution as explanation for traits and behaviours.

The evolutionary theory, as invoked in the evolutionary psychology, especially of the armchair variety, all too often is an universal explanation. It is magic that can explain anything equally well. Know of a fallacy of reasoning? Think up how it could have worked for the hunter gatherer, make a hypothesis, construct a flawed study across cultures, and publish.

No considerations are given for the strength of the advantage, for the size of 'mutation target', and for the mechanisms by which the mutation in the DNA would have resulted in the modification of the circuitry such as to result in the trait, nor to the gradual adaptability. All of that is glossed over entirely in common armchair evolutionary psychology, and unfortunately, even in the academia. The evolutionary psychology is littered with examples of traits which are alleged to have evolved over the same time during which we had barely adapted to walking upright.

It may be that when describing behaviours, a lot of complexity can be hidden into very simple-sounding concepts; and thus it seems like a good target for evolutionary explanation. But when you look at the details - the axons that have to find the targets; the gene must activate in the specific cells, but not others - there is a great deal of complexity in coding for even very simple traits.

Note: I originally did not intend to make an example of junk, for thou should not pick a strawman, but for sake of clarity, there is an example of what I would consider to be junk: the explanation of better performance at Wason Selection Task as result of evolved 'social contracts module', without a slightest consideration for what it might take, in terms of DNA, to code a Wason Selection Task solver circuit, nor for alternative plausible explanation, nor for a readily available fact that people can easily learn to solve Wason Selection Task correctly when taught - the fact which still implies general purpose learning, and the fact that high-IQ people can solve far more confusing tasks of far larger complexity, which demonstrates that the tasks can be solved in absence of specific evolved 'social contract' modules.

There is an example of non-junk: the evolutionary pressure can adjust strength of pre-existing emotions such as anger, fear, and so on, and even decrease the intelligence whenever the higher intelligence is maladaptive.

Other commonly neglected fact: the evolution is not a watchmaker, blind or not. It does not choose a solution for a problem and then work on this solution! It works on all adaptive mutations simultaneously. Evolution works on all the solutions, and the simpler changes to existing systems are much quicker to evolve. If mutation that tweaks existing system improves fitness, it will, too, be selected for, even if there was a third eye in progress.

As much as it would be more politically correct and 'moderate' for e.g. evolution of religion crowd to get their point across by arguing that the religious people have evolved specific god module which doesn't do anything but make them believe in god, than to imply that they are 'genetically stupid' in some way, the same selective pressure would also make the evolution select for non-god-specific heritable tweaks to learning, and the minor cognitive deficits, that increase religiosity.

Lined slate as a prior

As update for tabula rasa, picture lined writing paper; it provides some guidance for the handwriting; the horizontal lined paper is good for writing text, but not for arithmetic, the five-lines-near-eachother separated by spacing is good for writing music, and the grid paper is pretty universal. Different regions of the brain are tailored to different content; but should not be expected to themselves code different algorithms, save for few exceptions which had long time to evolve, early in vertebrate history.

edit: improved the language some. edit: specific what sort of evolutionary psychology I consider to be junk, and what I do not, albeit that was not the point of the article. The point of the article was to provide you with the notions to use to see what sorts of evolutionary psychology to consider junk, and what do not.

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