Comment author: knb 14 October 2012 03:13:15AM *  3 points [-]

Saying the suit makes Stark a transhuman is like saying my car makes me a transhuman. One of the characters even flies away with one of Stark's suits in the second movie, so it isn't really a part of him in any sense. Yes Iron Man's technology progresses, but so does Batman's.

Plus, he designs his augmentations himself. Captain America just used the technology of some guy who then promptly proceeded to die

Ok, that might make Iron Man a better or more interesting character, but Tony Stark is not actually an augmented person in the movies. (Again, except for his fusion device thing, but that's the equivalent of a pacemaker, it restores normal mobility but doesn't augment his abilities).

Comment author: Dolores1984 14 October 2012 03:28:55AM 3 points [-]

How about a cyborg whose arm unscrews? Is he not augmented? Most of a cochlear implant can be removed. Nothing about trans-humanism says your augmentations have to be permanently attached to your body. You need only want to improve yourself and your abilities, which a robot suit of that caliber definitely accomplishes.

And, yes, obviously transhumanism is defined relative to historical context. If everyone's doing it, you don't need to have a word for it. That we have a word implies that transhumanists are looking ahead, and looking for things that not everyone has yet. So, no, your car doesn't make you a trans-humanist, but a robotic exoskeleton might be evidence of that philosophy.

Comment author: knb 13 October 2012 08:46:40PM 3 points [-]

More in the comics, I would say. In the films he only has one self-modification: the fusion device in his chest, and that is more of a medical device required to keep him alive than an actual transhumanist augmentation. In the comics, Stark has to continually modify his biology to keep up with the enhancements to his armor/fight more powerful villains.

Actually Captain America is perhaps a better example. He becomes a super soldier not by accident, but by volunteering for an experimental human-enhancement procedure.

Comment author: Dolores1984 13 October 2012 09:09:37PM *  2 points [-]

I think the suit definitely counts as human augmentation. Plus, he designs his augmentations himself. Captain America just used the technology of some guy who then promptly proceeded to die, making the process unrepeatable for some reason. Stark is constantly refining his stuff.

Comment author: DanArmak 13 October 2012 05:08:06PM 8 points [-]

Most superheros spend their lives fighting evil transhumanist villains. They don't tend to be transhumanist themselves, and their superpowers are (in Western tradition) gained by a nonreproducible accident. There's even a trope where having superpowers is a burden.

Comment author: Dolores1984 13 October 2012 07:00:19PM 6 points [-]

The obvious counter-example is iron man, especially in the films.

Comment author: Dolores1984 13 October 2012 06:56:40PM 1 point [-]

Simply to replicate one of the 10,000 neuron brain cells involved in the rat experiment took the processing capacity usually found in a single laptop.

Good lord, what sort of neuron model are they running? There had got to be a way to optimize that.

Comment author: Dolores1984 02 October 2012 09:38:31PM *  7 points [-]

Your four criteria leave an infinite set of explanations for any phenomenon. Including, yes, George the Giant. That's why we have the idea of Occam's razor - or, more formally, Solomonoff Induction. Though I suppose, depending on the data available to the tribe, the idea of giant humans might not be dramatically more complicated than plate tectonics. It isn't like they postulated a god of earthquakes or some nonsense like that. At minimum, however, they are privileging the George the Giant hypotheses over the other equally-complicated plausible explanations. The real truth is that they don't have enough data to come up with the real answers. They need to start recording data and studying the natural world. They can probably figure it out in a few hundred years if they really put their backs into it.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 October 2012 05:26:28AM 5 points [-]

Koan answers here for:

What rule could restrict our beliefs to just propositions that can be meaningful, without excluding a priori anything that could in principle be true?

Comment author: Dolores1984 02 October 2012 06:47:35AM 1 point [-]

When we try to build a model of the underlying universe, what we're really talking about it is trying to derive properties of a program which we are observing (and a component of), and which produces our sense experiences. Probably quite a short program in its initial state, in fact (though possibly not one limited by the finite precision of traditional Turing Machines).

So, that gives us a few rules that seem likely to be general: the underlying model must be internally consistent and mathematically describable, and must have a total K-complexity less than the amount of information in the observable universe (or else we couldn't reason about it).

So the question to ask is really "can I imagine a program state that would make this proposition true, given my current beliefs about my organization of the program?"

This is resilient to the atoms / QM thing, at least, as you can always change the underlying program description to better fit the evidence.

Although, in practice, most of what intelligent entities do can more precisely be described as 'grammar fitting' than 'program induction.' We reason probabalistically, essentially by throwing heuristics at a wall to see what offers marginal returns on predicting future sense impressions, since trying to guess the next word in a sentence by reverse-deriving the original state of the universe-program and iterating it forwards is not practical for most people. That massive mess of semi-rational, anticipatorially-justified rules of thumb is what allows us to reason in the day to day.

So a more pragmatic question is 'how does this change my anticipation of future events?' or 'What sense experiences do I expect to have differently as a result of this belief?'

It is only when we seek to understand more deeply and generally, or when dealing with problems of things not directly observable, that it is practical to try to reason about the actual program underlying the universe.

Comment author: [deleted] 01 October 2012 08:26:57PM 0 points [-]

That said, whole brain emulation ought to be experimentally feasible, in what, fifteen years?

Maybe, but scanning a vitrified brain with such a high resolution that a copy would feel more or less like the same person might take a bit longer.

Comment author: Dolores1984 01 October 2012 09:01:05PM *  1 point [-]

Most of the sensible people seem to be saying that the relevant neural features can be observed at a 5nm x 5nm x 5nm spatial resolution, if supplemented with some gross immunostaining to record specific gene expressions and chemical concentrations. We already have SEM setups that can scan vitrified tissue at around that resolution, they're just (several) orders of magnitude too slow. Outfitting them to do immunostaining and optical scanning would be relatively trivial. Since multi-beam SEMS are expected to dramatically increase the scan rate in the next couple of years, and since you could get excellent economies of scale for scanning on parallel machines, I do not expect the scanners themselves to be the bottleneck technology.

The other possible bottleneck is the actual neuroscience, since we've got a number of blind spots in the details of how large-scale neural machinery operates. We don't know all the factors we would need to stain for, we don't know all of the details of how synaptic morphology correlates with statistical behavior, and we don't know how much detail we need in our neural models to preserve the integrity of the whole (though we have some solid guesses). We also do not, to the best of my knowledge, have reliable computational models of glial cells at this point. There are also a few factors of questionable importance, like passive neurotransmitter diffusion and electrical induction that need further study to decide how (if at all) to account for them in our models. However, progress in this area is very rapid. The Blue Brain project alone has made extremely strong progress in just a few years. I would be surprised if it took more than fifteen years to solve the remaining open questions.

Large scale image processing and data analytics, for parsing the scan images, is a sufficiently mature science that it's not my primary point of concern. What could really screw it up is if Moore's law craps out in ten years like Gordon Moore has predicted, and none of the replacement technologies are advanced enough to pick up the slack.

Comment author: Epiphany 01 October 2012 06:13:09AM *  1 point [-]

Well, there's no reason to think you'd be completely isolated from top level reality.

Hmm. I hadn't thought very much about blends of reality and virtual reality like that. I've encountered that idea but hadn't really thought about it.

you might be a sociopath.

You took one example way too far. That wasn't intended as an essay on my views of friendship. The words "one of the things that creates bonds" should have been a big hint that I think there's more to friendship than that. Why did you suddenly start wondering if I'm a sociopath? That seems paranoid, or it suggests that I did something unexpected.

Rationality is about maximizing your values.

Okay, but the reason why rationality has a special ability to help you get more of what you want is because it puts you in touch with reality. Only when you're in touch with reality can you understand it enough to make reality do things you want. In a simulation, you don't need to know the rules of reality, or how to tell the difference between true and false. You can just press a button and make the sun revolve around the earth, turn off laws of physics like gravity, or cause all the calculators to do 1+1 = 3.

In a virtual world where you can get whatever you want by pressing a button, what value would rationality have?

Comment author: Dolores1984 01 October 2012 06:29:41PM 1 point [-]

Additionally, reality and virtual reality can get a lot fuzzier than that. If AR glasses become popular, and a protocol exists to swap information between them to allow more seamless AR content integration, you could grab all the feeds coming in from a given location, reconstruct them into a virtual environment, and insert yourself into that environment, which would update with the real world in real time. People wearing glasses could see you as though you were there, and vice versa. If you rented a telepresence robot, it would prevent people from walking through you, and allow you to manipulate objects, shake hands, that sort of thing. The robot would simply be replaced by a rendering of you in the glasses. Furthermore, you could step from that real environment seamlessly into an entirely artificial environment, and back again, and overlay virtual content onto the real world. I suspect that in the next twenty years, the line between reality and virtual reality is going to get really fuzzy, even for non-uploads.

Comment author: mwengler 01 October 2012 10:36:41AM 0 points [-]

I put the odds that we will have nanobots in our bloodstream killing cancer cells and regulating our chemistry to avoid a lot of metabolic problems, repair injuries, and so on, at a pretty high number. I put the odds that we will figure out how to put a living human into some sort of suspended animation and bring them back into regular animation at some sort of reasonable odds. I put the odds that if we did our best effort to freeze a living person now without damage that we would be able to eventually revive them at maybe 10%. The odds that we will be able to revive a person frozen or otherwise preserved after they are legally dead, that's getting down towards time-machine to the past odds, since I think you are freezing after important parts of the information are lost.

Conditioned on having the technical ability to revive the frozen, that might raise the odds of eventually being revived towards 10%. There are a lot of things that might keep revival from happening other than it not being possible technically.

Comment author: Dolores1984 01 October 2012 05:38:16PM 1 point [-]

If you're talking about people frozen after four plus hours of room temperature ischemia, I'd agree with you that the odds are not good. However, somebody with a standby team, perfused before ischemic clotting can set in and vitrified quickly, has a very good chance in my book. We've done SEM imaging of optimally vitrified dead tissue, and the structural preservation is extremely good. You can go in and count the pores on a dendrite. There simply isn't much information lost immediately after death, especially if you get the head in ice water quickly.

I also have quite a high confidence that we'll be seeing WBE technology in the next forty years (I'd wager at better than even odds that we'll see it in the next twenty). The component technologies already exist (and need only iterative improvements), and many of them are falling exponentially in cost. That combined with what I suspect will be a rather high demand when the potential reaches the public consciousness, is a pretty potent combination of forces.

So, for me, I lose most of my probability mass to the idea that, if you're vitrified now, something will happen to Alcor within 40 years, or, more generally, some civilization-disrupting event will occur in the same time frame. That your brain isn't preserved (under optimal conditions), or that we'll never figure out how to slice up and emulate a brain, are not serious points of concern to me.

Comment author: Epiphany 01 October 2012 06:13:09AM *  1 point [-]

Well, there's no reason to think you'd be completely isolated from top level reality.

Hmm. I hadn't thought very much about blends of reality and virtual reality like that. I've encountered that idea but hadn't really thought about it.

you might be a sociopath.

You took one example way too far. That wasn't intended as an essay on my views of friendship. The words "one of the things that creates bonds" should have been a big hint that I think there's more to friendship than that. Why did you suddenly start wondering if I'm a sociopath? That seems paranoid, or it suggests that I did something unexpected.

Rationality is about maximizing your values.

Okay, but the reason why rationality has a special ability to help you get more of what you want is because it puts you in touch with reality. Only when you're in touch with reality can you understand it enough to make reality do things you want. In a simulation, you don't need to know the rules of reality, or how to tell the difference between true and false. You can just press a button and make the sun revolve around the earth, turn off laws of physics like gravity, or cause all the calculators to do 1+1 = 3.

In a virtual world where you can get whatever you want by pressing a button, what value would rationality have?

Comment author: Dolores1984 01 October 2012 06:28:18AM *  -1 points [-]

The words "one of the things that creates bonds" should have been a big hint that I think there's more to friendship than that. Why did you suddenly start wondering if I'm a sociopath? That seems paranoid, or it suggests that I did something unexpected.

Well, then there's your answer to the question 'what is friendship good for' - whatever other value you place on friendship that makes you neurotypical. I was just trying to point out that that line of reasoning was silly.

Okay, but the reason why rationality has a special ability to help you get more of what you want is because it puts you in touch with reality. Only when you're in touch with reality can you understand it enough to make reality do things you want. In a simulation, you don't need to know the rules of reality, or how to tell the difference between true and false. You can just press a button and make the sun revolve around the earth, turn off laws of physics like gravity, or cause all the calculators to do 1+1 = 3. In a virtual world where you can get whatever you want by pressing a button, what value would rationality have?

Well, you have to get to that point, for starters. And, yes, you do need some level of involvement with top-level reality. To pay for your server space, if nothing else. Virtual environments permit a big subset of life (play, communication, learning, etc. much more efficiently than real life), with a few of the really horrifying sharp edges rounded off, and some additional possibilities added.

There are still challenges to that sort of living, both those imposed by yourself, and those imposed by ideas you encounter and by your interactions with other people. Rationality still has value, for overcoming these sorts of obstacles, even if you're not in imminent danger of dying all the time.

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