Comment author: RobinZ 11 May 2010 03:30:12PM 3 points [-]

I think Eliezer's point is less strong than you think: for one thing, reading a history book is a sensory experience, and fewer history books would proclaim that The Crusades occurred in worlds where they had not than in worlds where they had.

Comment author: Dpar 07 June 2010 11:27:21AM *  1 point [-]

I was going to write a more detailed reply, but then realized that any continued discussion will require us to debate what exactly the OP meant to say in his post, which is pointless since neither of us can read his mind. So let's just call it a day.

DP

Comment author: RobinZ 11 May 2010 03:14:00PM 5 points [-]

I think many of us have actually encountered liars on the Internet. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "lacking any factual evidence".

Comment author: Dpar 07 June 2010 11:07:01AM *  2 points [-]

I presume that you have encountered liars in the real world as well. Do you, on that basis, habitually assume that a random stranger engaging in casual conversation with you is a liar?

My point is that pathological liars are a small minority. So if you're dealing with a person that you know absolutely nothing about, and who does not have any conceivable reason to lie to you, there is nothing unreasonable in assuming that he's telling you the truth, unless you have factual evidence (i.e. you have accurate, verifiable knowledge of ambulance policies) that contradicts what he's saying.

DP

Comment author: Dpar 11 May 2010 06:57:50AM *  3 points [-]

What about knowledge for the sake of knowledge? For instance I don't anticipate that my belief that The Crusades took place will ever directly affect my sensory experiences in any way. Does that then mean that this belief is completely worthless and on the same level as the belief in ghosts, psychics, phlogiston, etc.?

Wouldn't taking your chain of reasoning to its logical conclusion require one to "evict" all beliefs in everything that one has not, and does not anticipate to, personally see, hear, smell, taste, or touch? After all, how much personal sensory experience do you have that confirms the existence of atoms, for example?

DP

Comment author: tel 24 January 2010 01:23:25AM 0 points [-]

That makes sense if you're only evaluating complete strangers. In other words, your uncertainty about the population-inferred trustworthiness of a person is pretty high and so instead the mere (Occam Factor style) complexity of their statement is the overruling component of your decision.

In the stated case, this isn't a totally random stranger. I feel quite justified in having a less-than uninformative prior about trusting IRC ghosts. In this case, my rationally acquired prejudice overrules in inference about the truth of even somewhat ordinary tales.

Comment author: Dpar 11 May 2010 06:36:54AM *  0 points [-]

The author did not mention anything about an exceptionally high percentage of liars in IRC relative to the general population (which would be quite relevant to his statement) therefore there's no reason to believe that such had been HIS experience in the past.

Given that, there is no reason for HIM to presume that the percentage of compulsive liars in IRC would different from the general population. YOUR experiences may, of course, be drastically different, but they are not the subject of discussion here.

DP

Comment author: Sniffnoy 04 April 2010 10:17:29AM 5 points [-]

("read something somewhere" does not qualify)

Wait, why not?

Comment author: Dpar 11 May 2010 06:22:01AM *  0 points [-]

I read somewhere that if spin about and click my heels 3 times I will be transported to the land of Oz. Does that qualify as a concrete reason to believe that such a land does indeed exist?

DP

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 April 2010 09:26:49AM *  12 points [-]

You're talking to a complete stranger on the internet. He doesn't know you, and cannot have any possible interest in deceiving you.

There's plenty of evidence that some people (a smallish minority, I think) will deceive strangers for the fun of it.

Comment author: Dpar 11 May 2010 06:20:12AM *  0 points [-]

Which, as I said later on in the same paragraph, is irrational and unlikely behavior. Therefore, when lacking any factual evidence, the reasonable presumption is that that's not the case.

DP

Comment author: tel 29 October 2009 11:49:18PM 1 point [-]

That's certainly sensible, and in But There's Still a Chance Eleiezer makes examples where this seems strong. In the above example, it depends a whole lot on how much belief you have in people (or, rather, lines of IRC chat).

I think then that your strength as a rationalist comes in balancing that uncertainty against some your prior trust in people. At which point, instead of predicting the negative, I'd seek more information.

Comment author: Dpar 14 January 2010 06:41:42PM *  0 points [-]

The level of "trust" you have in a person should be inversely proportional to the sensationalism of the claim that he's making.

If a person tells you he was abducted by a UFO, you demand evidence.

If a person tells you that on the way to work he slipped and fell down, and you have no concrete reason to doubt the story in particular or the person in general, you take that at face value. It is a reasonable assumption that a perfect stranger in all likelihood will NOT be delusional or a compulsive liar.

DP

Comment author: Dpar 14 January 2010 06:36:07PM *  6 points [-]

I don't see that you did anything at all irrational. You're talking to a complete stranger on the internet. He doesn't know you, and cannot have any possible interest in deceiving you. He tells you a fairly detailed story and asks for you advice. For him to make the whole thing up just for kicks is an example of highly irrational and fairly unlikely behavior.

Conversely, a person's panicking over chest pains and calling the ambulance is a comparatively frequent occurrence. Your having read somewhere something about ambulance policies does not amount to having concrete, irrefutable knowledge that an ambulance crew cannot make an on-site determination that there's no need to take a person to the hospital. To a person without extensive medical knowledge there is nothing particularly unlikely about the story you were told.

Therefore, the situation is this -- you are told by a complete stranger that has no reason to lie to you a perfectly believable story. You have no concrete reason ("read something somewhere" does not qualify) to doubt either the story or the man's sanity. Thus there is nothing illogical about taking the story at face value. You did the perfectly rational thing.

Since there was no irrationality in your initial behavior, the conclusions that you arrive at further in your post are unfounded.

DP

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