Comment author: Duk3 04 August 2011 06:21:12PM 1 point [-]

Maybe we don't want specific things in a consistent way. Generalizing from that to we don't want things seems premature. Maybe we just want the taste of tea and are willing to adapt that desire to whatever sort of tea cup we see moment by moment. I would say those recent posts have explored the degree to which we have goals, not effectively opened the question of whether or not we have them.

At the very least goals which we write down and tell others about have some impetus in our lives, through social reinforcement, commitment effects, and the capability to enlist others and build structures which cause those goals to be expressed more powerfully.

Though it seems our brains might not be very good at having explicit goals in useful ways.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 26 July 2011 07:47:04AM 3 points [-]

On the contrary, skeptical sir!

skeptical sir or madam :)

I will now present an exercise which rapidly becomes reflexive, in a manner which will cause it to become reflexive, which separates the exercise from the situation so that you can learn the requisite acting skills separately!

I don't follow at all how the writing exercises help me ask "what's in it for [what I care about]?" in deciding what to pay attention to. They seem like fine exercises, but other than the fact that you're choosing a topic, I see no relation.

I remember GEB being entertaining but not mind-blowing. I'd already studied mathematical logic, though.

Comment author: Duk3 27 July 2011 11:48:11PM 1 point [-]

I don't understand what you mean by 'how the writing exercises help me ask "what's in it for [what i care about]?" in deciding what to pay attention to.'

Comment author: CuSithBell 27 July 2011 04:13:16AM 1 point [-]

Act like Suspicious, Smart, Rich People Do. Assume everyone and everything is both an opportunity and an encounter with a parasite, and don’t act like it unless it’s socially convenient.

Do you think there might be any downsides to this?

Comment author: Duk3 27 July 2011 11:42:18PM 1 point [-]

Yes. You definitely run the risk of being considered calculating and manipulative. Also there is a further risk of overestimating your ability to spot risks and then being susceptible to street smart tricks. Also if you're not good at acting then you'll be immediately offputting if you do this in daily life and wear it on the surface.

Comment author: Duk3 27 July 2011 11:34:08PM 8 points [-]

I like Anna's perspective that being wrong is like admitting that you're smarter now than you were in the past. It helps me be willing to see my beliefs as things I used to believe and haven't rethought about from my new, improved perspective, and remember to try and update when appropriate.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 July 2011 06:58:43AM 0 points [-]

First link after searching for Mind Projection Fallacy.

E. T. Jaynes used the term Mind Projection Fallacy to denote the error of projecting your own mind's properties into the external world.

Other-optimizing is a subset.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Shortening the Unshortenable Way
Comment author: Duk3 26 July 2011 07:44:29AM 2 points [-]

Interesting idea, paper. Your assertion is that because I have tried this and it works for me, I unreasonably weight its properties as helpful instead of objectively looking at it as another self-helpy useless trick? I suppose I am confused at the idea that because this idea may have helped me to establish the habit of writing in my journal, and the reflex of looking for opportunities to be rational, which seems positive.

I suppose I never stopped to think that i might be committing a typical mind fallacy when guessing that a useful habit which i used to train myself to be rationally opportunistic might be useful for lesswrong as a whole.

It is true that my post is attempting to optimize others. I am realistic enough to assume that everyone won't try this, particularly those who are already optimized in this fashion, but I also don't think that we should avoid posting potentially helpful techniques because we fear the mind projection fallacy and its other-optimizing subset.

Shortening the Unshortenable Way

-2 Duk3 26 July 2011 06:44AM

 

or

A Starting Point for Defense against Flexible Dark Artists and Circumstances

 

In On Seeking a Shortening of the Way the assertion “Maybe we're not geniuses because we don't bother paying attention to ordinary things” caught my eye. Certainly! I said. Obviously if we were able to pay the appropriate amount of attention to every occurrence so as to gain enough data to update our models in an optimal way, we would rapidly increase our overall ability to model the world and increase our probability of insights at the level currently considered ‘genius.’

 

                And then I remembered that I can’t really do that, on account of having crappy models of what is actually important, and thinking that i can't improve those models quickly. Whoops! I, like so many others, fail to know how much attention to pay to ordinary things so as to become a genius. C’est la vie. Fortunately the lesson here was not the factuality of the statement, which is high, but a reminder that you could probably gain benefits from paying more attention and being more disciplined in your thought.

                Which is even better because it’s great advice, and eminently doable. Thanks, Yvain! So I set about paying attention to how I currently pay attention and, like usual, paid attention to the cues I get about how other people pay attention, assuming that I make the mistakes they do at least some of the time.

                And then I realized… wait a minute, whenever other people aren’t actually paying attention is when I could most easily shanghai them into doing things they normally wouldn’t do (Were I a dark artist. Hypothetically.). So learning how to pay more attention and pay attention in the correct way is probably the best reflexive method of avoiding being dutch booked by people who are highly adaptable dark artists.

                And here’s my low-hanging fruit of techniques to build the foundational reflexes for shortening the way. The goal is to avoid being inattentive in certain sorts of situations where I noted personal susceptibility to being taken advantage of by changing situations or flexible con artists.

                Summary: Act like Suspicious, Smart, Rich People Do. Assume everyone and everything is both an opportunity and an encounter with a parasite, and don’t act like it unless it’s socially convenient. How do you do this, you say. It sounds more difficult than that, you say. On the contrary, skeptical sir! I will now present an exercise which rapidly becomes reflexive, in a manner which will cause it to become reflexive, which separates the exercise from the situation so that you can learn the requisite acting skills separately! Try this!

Ask yourself for new people , situations, arguments, and facts, what is this worth to me? What risks do I run by paying attention to this? What opportunities lie in this, if my understanding of it is correct? What risks do I run, if my understanding of it is incorrect? And you can go as much deeper as you think is valuable or are mentally capable of sustaining.

                  For the step-by-steppers out there (I salute you!), here’s explicitly How To start doing this in a low-cost way.

Step 1: In your journal for daily events (If you’re not keeping one of these go buy a journal and start. Without a daily log how do you know you’re actually making progress?) use Pen and Paper (The Great Equalizer!) and write down your understanding of a couple of important topics and a few simple topics (the simple topics shouldn’t take as long… right?). This will be a lot of work! But it’s only for one day, and developing this mental habit in particular and your ability to do rational yet seemingly onerous things for a brief period each day will both be massively valuable.

Step 2: When That Gets Boring, elaborate with pros and cons, an analysis of arguments, or other techniques that professionals use when it’s important (Imagine a lawyer not analyzing their opponent’s arguments, and then imagine yourself as their client.).  Do a Fermi calculation (here's some practice) if it involves a number of things you don’t understand well.

Step 3: Avoid abusing this method to convince yourself you don't need to run the numbers by pretending someone else, someone biased,wrote the analysis. (Those darned Biased people, cropping up even in your own journal!) Think of how future versions of yourself will look at your thought processes (you'll be smarter then... wiser... with a knowledge ofcommon logical fallacies and the heuristics and biases literature)(you might even read Godel Escher Bach or something andblow your mind. Anything is possible!). Look over your previous analyses before deciding (sleep on it and wait on it). Developing a decent set of evidence for fermi calculations and calibration exercises will let you use the same thought processes to do this right when you don't have time to run the numbers.

Step 4: Profit.

 

 

Comment author: Duk3 26 July 2011 04:44:24AM 6 points [-]

My name is Peter Scheyer. I am a professional entrepreneur. I have attended the 2011 Minicamp and Boot Camp as a sometime instructor and all-time participant in business theory and practice. I will be writing on many topics, including defense against/ how to use the Dark Arts, Granularization, Rational Task Completion, and topics related to my new startup based around building software which uses rationality concepts to make being addictive productive.

Comment author: Dr_Manhattan 15 July 2011 02:39:08PM 5 points [-]

All are using their near-complete control of effortless immediate actions to make up for their incomplete control of high-effort long-term actions.

I am interested in examples any non-trivial optimizations that have been achieved by stitching together "effortless immediate actions", any mental equivalents of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_red_paperclip

Comment author: Duk3 26 July 2011 04:07:20AM 5 points [-]

You could consider the creation of the modern economy as a series of effortless immediate actions, an implementation of the greedy algorithm which is codified after the fact into law.

Comment author: Duk3 26 July 2011 03:55:48AM 8 points [-]

I would like to see a thorough analysis of how someone raising funds can use the tricks from Cialdini's Influence to effectively contribute to charity. Even those without funds could use that sort of lesson to contribute meaningfully.

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