Comment author: ChristianKl 19 January 2016 05:08:36PM 0 points [-]

Do you think that made the action significantly more effective than the GiveWell charities?

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 05:54:20PM 1 point [-]

Yes, I believe the government efforts with regard to ebola were more effective. I also believe that many government programs are terrible. We buy excess corn here and give it for free there, killing local markets.

Comment author: gjm 19 January 2016 05:22:38PM 0 points [-]

Say there is a mosquito-net maker in small-town Africa.

That's the first stage at which I am most doubtful about Moyo's argument. Sure, one can postulate situations in which sending a lot of mosquito nets to Africa does a lot of damage by putting a lot of local mosquito-net makers out of business. But is that actually happening? (Or, failing that, is there good reason to think it would be happening if it weren't for charitable mosquito-net provision?)

The other point at which I am doubtful: let's suppose that supplying mosquito nets puts N people out of work per year. That's bad (unless N=0). But it also stops M people getting malaria per year. How do those effects balance out? Does Moyo make any attempt at such a calculation, or is she doing a cost-benefit analysis that completely ignores the benefits?

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 05:49:50PM 1 point [-]

Sure, one can postulate situations in which sending a lot of mosquito nets to Africa does a lot of damage by putting a lot of local mosquito-net makers out of business. But is that actually happening?

Pick an industry that is thriving in, say, South Africa and compare it to the same industry in a high-aid country like Uganda. Inevitably you will find that the more sector-aid they receive, the worse their industries produce. It is hard to out-compete free. I gave the Malawi-medical example below but they are everywhere.

I was there this time last year and saw that the rhino horn crisis was actually being encouraged by officials who had positioned family and friends as the ready solution for the deep pockets aid organizations to buy.

How about orphans. Who could be against helping them? There are the countless orphan scandals across Africa and South Asia where parents rent or sell their children to the orphanage. https://www.zammagazine.com/chronicle/chronicle-12/217-child-abuse-in-the-name-of-voluntourism

Chances are, if you live in a U.S. city you will walk past a homeless person today. You can continue walking without dropping a coin in their cup because you have empathy (you understand the complexities of his/her plight) and realize that by giving the quarter you will do more harm than good. But we want to be good so we pick people far away with whom we cannot empathize (in the truest sense of the word.... able to walk in their shoes) and then send them money.

This idea is objectionable to your mind (and mine) because we desperately want to help people. So we become good at ignoring the fact that our help actually hurts.

Google Moyo and watch a few of her interviews.

Comment author: gjm 19 January 2016 03:51:19PM 0 points [-]

I want to help. More than you could ever know.

OK; in that case it sounds as if I have misjudged your motivations (and perhaps also how broadly you are claiming that the best charity is no charity; that's still not altogether clear to me). It is possible that your choice of username influenced me in the direction of thinking you more likely to be advocating something like egoism :-).

How do you feel about charitable activity that only supplies its beneficiaries with useful resources? For instance, two of GiveWell's current recommendations are:

  • A charity that provides people in poor malaria-afflicted parts of the world with bednets impregnated with insecticide.
  • A charity that simply gives money to poor people. (In one-off donations, which are explicitly intended to enable them to do things they otherwise couldn't -- though there are no strings attached.)

These seem to me like they don't get in the way of anything the beneficiaries could have done for themselves, and the available evidence seems to suggest that in fact they do substantially more good than harm.

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 04:44:12PM 0 points [-]

Dambisa Moyo specifically addresses the bednet issue in her excellent book Dead Aid.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123758895999200083

Even what may appear as a benign intervention on the surface can have damning consequences. Say there is a mosquito-net maker in small-town Africa. Say he employs 10 people who together manufacture 500 nets a week. Typically, these 10 employees support upward of 15 relatives each. A Western government-inspired program generously supplies the affected region with 100,000 free mosquito nets. This promptly puts the mosquito net manufacturer out of business, and now his 10 employees can no longer support their 150 dependents. In a couple of years, most of the donated nets will be torn and useless, but now there is no mosquito net maker to go to. They'll have to get more aid. And African governments once again get to abdicate their responsibilities.

Comment author: ChristianKl 19 January 2016 12:06:25PM 1 point [-]

This motivation on the part of the missionaries to be selfless (an impossible task) is THE cause of the problem. While some believe it is possible to align dissimilar motivations to create good ends, there are plenty of Africans who say that contrasting motivations have tied the continent into thorny knots. (see Dambisa Moyo)

We succeed to elimate small pox through Western inspired aid.

Africa is much better than it was 40 years ago. As hand Rosling says, most people on the West know less than chimpanzee of the success of helping Africa.

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 02:21:11PM *  0 points [-]

Western governments and governmental organizations did so. We had skin in the game. Same with Ebola.

Comment author: Gleb_Tsipursky 19 January 2016 03:54:24AM 1 point [-]

Agreed. I was talking about what the Effective Altruism movement orients toward, not the semantic definition of altruism.

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 02:00:05PM *  -1 points [-]

Words matter. It steals the positive cultural connotations of the word altruism without actually being altruistic.

It exploits the gray area between being vs. seeming to be. There is a word for that. It's called lying.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 19 January 2016 07:41:18AM 1 point [-]

Why not just be absolutely anonymous?

Accountability matters.

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 01:23:59PM *  1 point [-]

Accountability matters.

Being public does not provide accountability. Is Zuckerberg being held accountable for the Newark schools debacle? No. People are saying, "At least he tried."

Here's the thing.... We understand the idea of creative destruction in other realms but fail to see it when our attention is attracted, like a bull to the red cape, to the people who are suffering in the destruction phase. Propping up a dysfunctional system is worse than letting it fail and rebuilding entirely.

Comment author: gjm 19 January 2016 11:20:56AM -2 points [-]

How very convenient that the best thing for millions of desperately poor people is for comfortable Westerners like us to do nothing to help them.

(It may well be true in some cases, but I do find it striking how very little evidence seems to be needed to convince some people that the best charity is no charity.)

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 01:15:46PM *  2 points [-]

How very convenient that the best thing for millions of desperately poor people is for comfortable Westerners like us to do nothing to help them.

To the contrary, it is very inconvenient.

We naturally want to help. I want to help. More than you could ever know. After being on the ground in Africa for a while I just realized that:

  1. Most of the things I could do are more harmful than allowing those desperately poor people to solve their problems themselves.

  2. There is an upward spiral of confidence, strength and capability when someone solves their own problems and a downward spiral of dependence when problems are solved for them.

  3. It is nearly impossible for my comfortable Westerner eyes to distinguish between those problems I can solve without doing harm and those where I would wreak havoc.

  4. My comfortable Western mind is biased toward action. Action makes me feel good. Refraining from action makes me feel bad. This action-bias causes me to do great harm.

  5. My presence enables and permits dysfunction in the one organization that could solve these problems: government.

For those trying to solve persistent problems closer to home, look at those points and see how many apply to your pet project.

Comment author: gjm 19 January 2016 02:39:37AM 0 points [-]

This motivation [...] to be selfless [...] is THE cause of the problem.

I don't see how. I'll assume, at least for the sake of argument, that your account of how these things work out is accurate; how would it go any better if the volunteers had different, less selfless, motivation? And why blame the situation on the volunteers' selflessness rather than on any of the other elements in the situation -- the locals' preference for cheaper but worse medical care, the offers for the physicians to emigrate, the fact that the local physicians are dependent on money from the locals rather than being paid by the government as in some Western countries, the fact that the volunteers eventually go away?

Actually, I'm a bit confused by the description of the process. So, the problem is that the volunteers turn up, provide cheap medical care thus putting the local physician out of business, and then go away. If the volunteers stayed around, the locals would have cheap medical care all the time and presumably that's a good outcome. Now, why does the local physician emigrate to the West rather than just moving down the road to another village that doesn't have western volunteers? Is it because there's more money to be made by emigrating? (In that case, surely the temptation is there even without the western volunteers.) Is it because the village down the road also has volunteers undercutting the physician? (If that's commonly the case, then a large fraction of the country must be getting free medical care from these volunteers -- so are you sure they aren't doing more good than harm overall?) Is it because the village down the road has its own physician? (If that's commonly the case, then the country isn't so desperately short of physicians as you describe.) I dunno -- I'm just having trouble seeing how your account fits together. Is it actually well founded on evidence?

The only way to be a true altruist is to be anonymous.

Would those African rural outposts have been better off if their first-aid volunteers had all been wearing masks and keeping their identities secret?

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 04:37:19AM *  1 point [-]

If the volunteers stayed around, the locals would have cheap medical care all the time and presumably that's a good outcome.

No, that's a terrible outcome. Long-term solutions to persistent, difficult problems come about when capable people with skin in the game take action. Malawian doctors have skin in the African game but are sidelined when Milwaukeean dairy farmers fill in for free.

Further, when we look closer to home we understand that there are many problems for which the best possible solution is to do nothing. That misfit brother who has to learn to stand on his own two feet would be much better off if mom and dad would let him fail a few times. We understand the nuance of the situation because we are part of the culture and part of the family. The further we are removed from the person needing help the harder it becomes to understand that nuance.

Eric Sevareid's had a wonderful saying, "The chief cause of problems is solutions."

Comment author: gjm 19 January 2016 02:39:37AM 0 points [-]

This motivation [...] to be selfless [...] is THE cause of the problem.

I don't see how. I'll assume, at least for the sake of argument, that your account of how these things work out is accurate; how would it go any better if the volunteers had different, less selfless, motivation? And why blame the situation on the volunteers' selflessness rather than on any of the other elements in the situation -- the locals' preference for cheaper but worse medical care, the offers for the physicians to emigrate, the fact that the local physicians are dependent on money from the locals rather than being paid by the government as in some Western countries, the fact that the volunteers eventually go away?

Actually, I'm a bit confused by the description of the process. So, the problem is that the volunteers turn up, provide cheap medical care thus putting the local physician out of business, and then go away. If the volunteers stayed around, the locals would have cheap medical care all the time and presumably that's a good outcome. Now, why does the local physician emigrate to the West rather than just moving down the road to another village that doesn't have western volunteers? Is it because there's more money to be made by emigrating? (In that case, surely the temptation is there even without the western volunteers.) Is it because the village down the road also has volunteers undercutting the physician? (If that's commonly the case, then a large fraction of the country must be getting free medical care from these volunteers -- so are you sure they aren't doing more good than harm overall?) Is it because the village down the road has its own physician? (If that's commonly the case, then the country isn't so desperately short of physicians as you describe.) I dunno -- I'm just having trouble seeing how your account fits together. Is it actually well founded on evidence?

The only way to be a true altruist is to be anonymous.

Would those African rural outposts have been better off if their first-aid volunteers had all been wearing masks and keeping their identities secret?

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 03:10:26AM *  -1 points [-]

Would those African rural outposts have been better off if their first-aid volunteers had all been wearing masks and keeping their identities secret?

They would have to believe that they could obscure their actions from their all-seeing, all-knowing god since their motivations were driven by the belief that they were gaining status toward a day of ultimate reckoning.

Those outposts would have been better had the amateurs stayed home.

Comment author: Jiro 19 January 2016 01:25:17AM *  0 points [-]

EA doesn't do that kind of thing. The currently popular idea is buying malaria nets. I don't think there's a large indigenous malaria net industry that is being displaced by this.

You're actually right--giving Africans free things can destroy the indigenous economy by making it hard for natives to make money--but not right about EA.

Comment author: Ego 19 January 2016 01:44:00AM 0 points [-]

EA doesn't do that kind of thing.

Ipse dixit and motivated reasoning.

Why not just be absolutely anonymous?

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