Comment author: TheOtherDave 22 January 2011 04:07:20PM 7 points [-]

Being tactfully noncommittal about your own beliefs until you've scoped out the lay of the land is a learnable skill.

Unfortunately, it's actually not the most important component. In many communities, it's the shibboleths that will trip you up... things the community tacitly expects all right-thinking people to already have a familiarity with. It's possible to spin one's ignorance of such things as an unfortunate personal deficit that one is eager to have corrected, and that can often overcome the barriers to entry... but it's a lot of work.

Comment author: Elizabeth 22 January 2011 06:31:36PM 4 points [-]

I think you're right, but suspect I will have more difficulty with the first than with the second. I am honestly curious about almost everything, which is a decent stand-in for spinning lack of knowledge as a personal deficit, but I am very bad at not speaking. I work at it, but I remain someone whose default setting is to babble at random people on the street. I'm better at "tactfully noncommittal" than I used to be, but I'm still pretty bad at it.

Comment author: TobyBartels 22 January 2011 07:33:24AM 3 points [-]

(I realize that this reveals a potential bias on my part regarding a correlation between intelligence and a liberal bent).

I wouldn't expect an intelligent conservative to posit this:

the reason it had not been cleaned up already was a conspiracy on the part of President Obama

So I don't see a bias if that idea shocked you (unless I share your bias). On the other hand, if you expected this:

"Oil companies shouldn't be allowed to make a mess they can't clean up." or "Shouldn't we invest in clean energy?"

simply because they were intelligent, then maybe there's a bias there.

As for the answer to the question that you asked, I agree with TheOtherDave and knb (not that I disagree with multifoliaterose either). Recognise that there is more variety of opinion, even among people who seem intelligent, than you previously realised, and the only way to find out what people believe is to talk to them.

Comment author: Elizabeth 22 January 2011 03:16:37PM 1 point [-]

I wouldn't expect an intelligent conservative to posit it either. That was the largest part of my shock; not that intelligent people were conservative, but that people I thought intelligent were spouting views that I correlated more closely with "Get your government hands off my Medicare." than with any thoughtful conservative analysis.

That encounter (among others) has changed my beliefs about the beliefs of others, and I do talk to many people of differing views. My most strongly held belief that was shaken, though, was the belief that intelligent people who disagree can at least find sufficient common factual ground to determine the precise nature of their disagreement, if not to come to consensus. Belief-as-attire is the best explanation I've seen for that, but it doesn't help me much in interacting with such believers, since by the time I've determined their beliefs they have determined mine, and identified me as an outsider.

The Illusion of Sameness

10 Elizabeth 22 January 2011 06:41AM

I have lately been pondering two contradictory human beliefs: the belief in our own exceptionalism and the belief in our own ordinariness.  We model the world with ourselves as prototypical humans, using our own emotions and reactions and thought processes to run a program predicting the behavior of others.  That is, after all, what our mirror neurons evolved for.  However, when it comes to our abilities or our intelligence or our problems, we believe we are something out of the ordinary.  The second bias is easier to compensate for than the first, but it is the first that interests me, because even when confronted with significant evidence of your own difference, it is extremely difficult to really internalize it and change your model of the world.

I consider it likely that among those reading this, more of you grew up in families of intelligent, educated people than the national average.  It is also likely that the number of readers who grew up in liberal and nonreligious families exceeds the norm.  Not all, certainly.  Quite possibly not even the majority.  However, I think there must be many among you who understand the shock of leaving your family and community, perhaps to go to college, and slowly discovering that there are people who don't think like you.  People who don't share your foundational knowledge, who trust different authorities, who have completely different default settings.

There are two separate pieces to this: the first is our default setting for the beliefs and authorities of others as similar to our own, and the second is our modeling of other people's mental processes as similar to our own.  The second is seldom run across in everyday life, unless engaging in a discussion of mental processes as in the comments on this post.  The first is run across fairly frequently, but here I must apologize for bringing up the mind-killer, for it is most apparent in politics.  I will endeavor to keep my example brief.

In the spring of 2010 I was substitute teaching in a rural area of upstate New York.  I was in the teacher's room eating lunch, with ten or so other teachers, when the subject of the BP oil spill arose, as it was the major current event at the time.  My experience dictated that the conversation would start with "Isn't this a terrible thing?" and proceed to "Oil companies shouldn't be allowed to make a mess they can't clean up." or "Shouldn't we invest in clean energy?"  However, though the conversation began as I expected, I was subsequently informed that the oil companies were fully capable of cleaning it up, and that the reason it had not been cleaned up already was a conspiracy on the part of President Obama.

This was particularly shocking to me because there were no warning signs.  These were people who were all educated to a Master's Degree level.  I had spoken to several on more innocuous topics, and they seemed both interesting and intelligent. (I realize that this reveals a potential bias on my part regarding a correlation between intelligence and a liberal bent).  They seemed, in every respect, to be people like me.

How could I have better predicted this?  I remain at a loss.  The only significant difference between that group and the people who react according to my model is region of origin, but that oversimplifies the question.  I am not only confused, I am viscerally uncomfortable.  How do we model for people whose cultural contexts and information delivering authorities are fundamentally different from our own, without lumping them into a faceless group?

In response to Rationalist Clue
Comment author: PhilGoetz 09 January 2011 05:21:56PM 2 points [-]

I'd like to play it. This could work by email, turn-based. All players could move simultaneously on each turn.

In response to comment by PhilGoetz on Rationalist Clue
Comment author: Elizabeth 12 January 2011 06:49:03AM 0 points [-]

I'd like to give it a shot too

Comment author: patrissimo 02 January 2011 06:51:29AM *  10 points [-]

At the risk of provoking defensiveness I will say that it really sounds like you are trying to rationalize your preferences as being rational when they aren't.

I say this because the examples that you were giving (local food kitchen, public radio), when compared to truly efficient charities (save lives, improve health, foster local entrepreneurship), are nothing like "save 9 kids + some other benefits" vs. "save 10 kids and nothing else". It''s more like "save 0.1 kids that you know are in your neighborhood" vs. "save 10 kids that you will never meet" (and that's probably an overestimate on the local option). Your choice of a close number is suspicious because it is so wrong and so appealing (by justifying the giving that makes you happy).

The amount of happiness that you create through local first world charities is orders of magnitude less than third world charities. Therefore, if you are choosing local first world charities that help "malnourished" kids who are fabulously nourished by third world standards, we can infer that the weight you put on "saving the lives of children" (and with it, "maximizing human quality-adjusted life years") is basically zero. Therefore, you are almost certainly buying warm fuzzies. That's consumption, not charity. I'm all for consumption, I just don't like people pretending that it's charity so they can tick their mental "give to charity" box and move on.

Comment author: Elizabeth 02 January 2011 04:47:21PM *  4 points [-]

I agree with you completely about consumption vs. charity, and had even mentioned the concept in my point about NPR donation guilt.

I also agree that the close number is wildly inaccurate, but even in context it wasn't applied to local charities and it was intended to make the point that multiple factors could and should be considered when picking charities, even when the importance multipliers on some factors are orders of magnitude higher than for other factors.

I hope this clarifies my meaning without defensiveness, because none was meant.

Comment author: Cyan 02 January 2011 03:32:37AM *  7 points [-]

I think my procrastination started this way years ago, but over time it turned into a vicious cycle of anxiety-inducing/induced procrastination that basically had nothing to do with the model described in the post. I was fully aware that websurfing was an anaesthetic that did nothing to recharge my mental batteries but simply kept me from thinking anxiety-provoking thoughts. Eventually I resorted to anxiolytics, and now I can say no to myself with relative ease.

Comment author: Elizabeth 02 January 2011 03:50:13AM 2 points [-]

Thank you, I do exactly the same thing. I have anxiety about not having started the work but if I can't start the work because to do that I have to stop doing the things distracting me from my anxiety. Sometimes it gets bad enough that I can't even sit still long enough to do the distracting activities, much less anything productive.

Comment author: DanielLC 26 December 2010 07:54:18AM 2 points [-]

Well if you get right down to it, feeling guilty only makes it worse. You should just not have the goal in the first place.

The point is that listening to a radio station should be significantly below saving lives on your list of goals.

Comment author: Elizabeth 26 December 2010 03:59:15PM 9 points [-]

My point was that it is not any more wrong to spend money on public radio than to spend money on cable tv or a new iPod. Yes, in theory all my money not spent on food and shelter could go to saving children, but you are not going to do that, I am not going to do that, and no one either of us knows is going to do that.

Comment author: shokwave 26 December 2010 09:30:37AM 5 points [-]

"saving children" is not necessarily our only goal

Unless you have a huge "they are in another country" discount on children's lives, or a huge "they are in my community" boost to the other goals, I can't name any goals off the top of my head that can compete with saving children's lives.

Comment author: Elizabeth 26 December 2010 03:48:31PM 3 points [-]

I didn't say that other goals could compete, but there are other goals that can be considered simultaneously. If one charity saves ten children for $100 and another saves nine and accomplishes a few other things, that is not a choice we should make mindlessly. we can't let "saving children become a buzzword that cuts off thought. What if the second charity saves the children from death and gives them some skills that will help them make a living and help their communities? In that case, I would probably choose the second charity. Think of it as a linear algebra problem, with numerous parameters with different weights. You end up with an optimal solution for all variables together rather than for a single variable alone. Just because saving children is the most heavily weighted variable doesn't mean that it is the only one.

Comment author: Elizabeth 25 December 2010 04:28:25PM 2 points [-]

I just had a conversation with my father on this subject which significantly clarified my thinking, and resolved most of my internal dilemma. The argument put forward in this post is correct, but there is one significant problem. I care about more than just saving children. I also care about how efficiently it is done, what peripheral good a charity is doing in the community by, say, employing locals, and any number of other things. "Children saved" is an important metric and should absolutely be considered, and it is a decision that should be made carefully, but it is not the only metric to consider. We should spend our money efficiently, but we first need to clarify our goals in order to do so, and "saving children" is not necessarily our only goal, even in cases where it is primary.

Comment author: Elizabeth 25 December 2010 05:15:39AM 22 points [-]

I find I run into a conundrum on this question, because there is a bias I fear overcompensating for. I know as a human that I am biased to care more about the one person standing in front of me than those ten thousand people starving in India that I'll never meet, but I find it difficult to apply that information. I know that donating money to, say, those malaria nets, will probably save more lives than donating to, say, my local food pantry. By these arguments, it seems that that fact should trump all, and I should donate to those malaria nets.

However, I know that my local food pantry is an organization that feeds people who really need food, that it has virtually no overhead, and that there are children who would be malnourished without it. I also know that there are people all over the world who will contribute to malaria nets, but it is highly unlikely that anyone outside my community will contribute to my local food pantry.

I agree that it is vitally important to think carefully about how we spend our charity money, and I understand that the difficulty I am having with this topic is an indication that I need to think more deeply on it, but I keep coming up against two basic issues.

  • There is no simple metric for "most good done." What if one disease costs little to prevent death, but leaves survivors crippled, while another costs much more to prevent death but leaves people healthy? Should I donate to the first, and burden the communities with many cripples, or to the second, and let people die? With food and medical care costing more in the developed world, should I only donate to help those in the undeveloped world, where my dollar will go farther?

  • Should I feel guilty for donating money to public radio because it doesn't save children? No. My purpose in donating money to public radio is to keep my favorite shows on the air, and my donations do that very efficiently. Yes, the money could go to save children, but so could the money I use to pay my cable bill. I should perhaps not consider it as charity the way I do a donation that saves children, but I should not feel guilty. If I have $500 allocated for entertainment and $500 allocated for charity, perhaps it should come out of the former. However, it would be disingenuous to say that donations for more frivolous causes, such as saving artwork, could be donated to better causes, such as malaria nets, unless we also point out that what we spent on our fancy dinner or our new dress or going to the movies could also be thus allocated.

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