Comment author: DanArmak 08 March 2015 08:37:59PM 4 points [-]

Why do people think children have greater moral value than adults, and it's worse to kill a child than a similarly defenseless, innocent adult?

Comment author: Emile 08 March 2015 09:04:59PM 14 points [-]

Because children are not fully capable of taking care of themselves, and so there is a norm that all adults (and older children) have a duty of helping and protecting them (even against themselves).

And also because if an adult harms a child, it is much more likely that the victim is innocent and didn't "deserve" that harm than if the victim is an adult.

(and I don't think "greater moral value" accurately describes the situation)

Comment author: Vaniver 08 March 2015 04:47:03PM 2 points [-]

However I have seen little discussion of the earlier part of the spectrum (friends and family vs. strangers), and it seems to be the one on which our intuitions agree the most reliably - which is why I think it deserves more of our attention (and having clear ideas about it might help about the rest).

I think, like you point out, this gets into near / far issues. How I behave around my family is tied into a lot of near mode things, and how I direct my charitable dollars is tied into a lot of far mode things. It's easy to talk far mode in an abstract way (Is it better to donate to ease German suffering or Somali suffering?) than it is to talk near mode in an abstract way (What is the optimal period for calling your mother?).

This was a big debate in ancient China, between the Confucians who considered it normal to have “care with distinctions” (愛有差等), whereas Mozi preached “universal love” (兼愛) in opposition to that, claiming that care with distinctions was a source of conflict and injustice.

The Spring and Autumn period definitely seems relevant, and I think someone could get a lot of interesting posts out of it.

Comment author: Emile 08 March 2015 08:04:01PM 2 points [-]

The Spring and Autumn period definitely seems relevant, and I think someone could get a lot of interesting posts out of it.

Yep, I've been reading a fair amount about it recently; I had considering first making a "prequel" post talking about that period and about how studying ancient China can be fairly interesting, in that it shows us a pretty alien society that still had similar debates.

I had heard from various sources how Confucius said it was normal to care more about some than others, and it took me a bit of work to dig up what that notion was called exactly.

Comment author: fizolof 08 March 2015 04:12:41PM 1 point [-]

I think ultimately, we should care about the well-being of all humans equally - but that doesn't necessarily mean making the same amount of effort to help one kid in Africa and your brother. What if, for example, the institution of family is crucial for the well-being of humans, and not putting your close ones first in the short run would undermine that institution?

Comment author: Emile 08 March 2015 08:01:21PM 2 points [-]

What if, for example, the institution of family is crucial for the well-being of humans, and not putting your close ones first in the short run would undermine that institution?

If that was the real reason you would treat your brother better than one kid in Africa, than you would be willing to sacrifice a good relationship with your brother in exchange for saving two good brother-relationships between poor kids in Africa.

I agree you could evaluate impersonally how much good the institution of the family (and other similar things, like marriages, promises, friendship, nation-states, etc.) creates; and thus how "good" are natural inclinations to help our family are (on the plus side; sustains the family, an efficient form of organization and child-rearing; on the down side: can cause nepotism). But we humans aren't moved by that kind of abstract considerations nearly as much as we are by a desire to care for our family.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Impartial ethics and personal decisions
Comment author: Vaniver 08 March 2015 03:17:45PM *  3 points [-]

I do not believe that assigning agents moral weight as if you are getting these weights from some source outside yourself is a good idea.

Suppose I get my weights from outside of me, and you get your weights from outside of you. Then it's possible that we could coordinate and get them from the same source, and then agree and cooperate.

Suppose I get my weights from inside me, and you get yours from inside you; then we might not be able to coordinate, instead wrestling each other over the ability to flip the switch.

Comment author: Emile 08 March 2015 07:55:30PM 3 points [-]

Suppose I get my weights from inside me, and you get yours from inside you; then we might not be able to coordinate, instead wrestling each other over the ability to flip the switch.

In practice people with different values manage to coordinate perfectly fine via trade; I agree an external source of morality would be sufficient for cooperation, but it's not necessary (also having all humans really take an external source as the real basis for all their choices would require some pretty heavy rewriting of human nature).

In response to Plane crashes
Comment author: imuli 08 March 2015 05:52:12PM 10 points [-]

Your question is: after an airliner accident, how often do any of the next n flights following the same route also have an accident?

Guessing (2/3 confidence) lower than the base rate.

In response to comment by imuli on Plane crashes
Comment author: Emile 08 March 2015 07:51:45PM 2 points [-]

Yeah, that was my thought too - after an accident, everyone is more careful and diligent, because there will be a search for someone to blame, and that's really not a good time to be asleep at the wheel, whatever your level of responsibility.

Impartial ethics and personal decisions

9 Emile 08 March 2015 12:14PM

Some moral questions I’ve seen discussed here:

  • A trolley is about to run over five people, and the only way to prevent that is to push a fat bystander in front of the trolley to stop it. Should I?
  • Is it better to allow 3^^^3 people to get a dust speck in their eye, or one man to be tortured for 50 years?
  • Who should I save, if I have to pick between one very talented artist, and five random nobodies?
  • Do I identify as an utilitarian? a consequentialist? a deontologist? a virtue ethicist?

Yet I spend time and money on my children and parents, that may be “better” spent elsewhere under many moral systems. And if I cared as much about my parents and children as I do about random strangers, many people would see me as somewhat of a monster.

In other words, “commonsense moral judgements” finds it normal to care differently about different groups; in roughly decreasing order:

  • immediate family
  • friends, pets, distant family
  • neighbors, acquaintances, coworkers
  • fellow citizens
  • foreigners
  • sometimes, animals
  • (possibly, plants...)
… and sometimes, we’re even perceived as having a *duty* to care more about one group than another (if someone saved three strangers instead of two of his children, how would he be seen?).

In consequentialist / utilitarian discussions, a regular discussion is “who counts as agents worthy of moral concern” (humans? sentient beings? intelligent beings? those who feel pain? how about unborn beings?), which covers the later part of the spectrum. However I have seen little discussion of the earlier part of the spectrum (friends and family vs. strangers), and it seems to be the one on which our intuitions agree the most reliably - which is why I think it deserves more of our attention (and having clear ideas about it might help about the rest).

Let’s consider two rough categories of decisions:

  • impersonal decisions: what should government policy be? By what standard should we judge moral systems? On which cause is charity money best spent? Who should I hire?
  • personal decisions: where should I go on holidays this summer? Should I lend money to an unreliable friend? Should I take a part-time job so I can take care of my children and/or parents better? How much of my money should I devote to charity? In which country should I live?

Impartial utilitarianism and consequentialism (like the question at the head of this post) make sense for impersonal decisions (including when an individual is acting in a role that require impartiality - a ruler, a hiring manager, a judge), but clash with our usual intuitions for personal decisions. Is this because under those moral systems we should apply the same impartial standards for our personal decisions, or because those systems are only meant for discussing impersonal decisions, and personal decisions require additional standards ?

I don’t really know, and because of that, I don’t know whether or not I count as a consequentialist (not that I mind much apart from confusion during the yearly survey; not knowing my values would be a problem, but not knowing which label I should stick on them? eh, who cares).

I also have similar ambivalence about Effective Altruism:

  • If it means that I should care as much about poor people in third world countries than I do about my family and friends, then it’s a bit hard to swallow.
  • However, if it means that assuming one is going to spend money to help people, one should better make sure that money helps them in the most effective way possible.

Scott’s “give ten percent” seems like a good compromise on the first point.

So what do you think? How does "caring for your friend’s and family" fit in a consequentialist/utilitarian framework ?

Other places this has been discussed:

  • This was a big debate in ancient China, between the Confucians who considered it normal to have “care with distinctions” (愛有差等), whereas Mozi preached “universal love” (兼愛) in opposition to that, claiming that care with distinctions was a source of conflict and injustice.
  • Impartiality” is a big debate in philosophy - the question of whether partiality is acceptable or even required.
  • The philosophical debate between “egoism and altruism” seems like it should cover this, but it feels a bit like a false dichotomy to me (it’s not even clear whether “care only for one’s friends and family” counts as altruism or egoism)
  • Special obligations” (towards Friends and family, those one made a promise to) is a common objection to impartial, impersonal moral theories
  • The Ethics of Care seem to cover some of what I’m talking about.
  • A middle part of the spectrum - fellow citizens versus foreigners - is discussed under Cosmopolitanism.
  • Peter Singer’s “expanding circle of concern” presents moral progress as caring for a wider and wider group of people (counterpoint: Gwern's Narrowing Circle) (I haven't read it, so can't say much)

Other related points:

  • The use of “care” here hides an important distinction between “how one feels” (My dog dying makes me feel worse than hearing about a schoolbus in China falling off a cliff) and “how one is motivated to act” (I would sacrifice my dog to save a schoolbus in China from falling off a cliff). Yet I think we have the gradations on both criteria.
  • Hanson’s “far mode vs. near mode” seems pretty relevant here.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 March 2015 08:21:58AM 1 point [-]

I totally know I suck at editing. Or writing. Yes, my posts are dumps of internal dialogue, a "save as" on my brain set. Can you recommend an e-book or something that would teach me this? At some level this is the issue with the Internet: everybody can publish, but most of us do not have access to a professional editor. I wonder if I could find an editor on Fiverr. It would totally worth me $5 per article.

Pop-psych, well, the issue is, 1. people suffer 2. there are basically NO ideas kicking around why. Any beginning is better than none. Even if the only result is someone disproving the whole thing in a good way gets us a step closer to some kind of a solution.

I see my role here as a non-scientific shaman healer trying to treat diseases by random herbs. It may work, out of pure luck, but even if not, you have to start your medicine somewhere, a real doctor executing a professional takedown on the shaman could accidentally solve the problem.

Comment author: Emile 03 March 2015 09:55:21AM 0 points [-]

Maybe practice editing more? If you suck at it, rewriting /editing your posts will only make you better at it. It might be a bit of work, it might take a bit of time, but it's nice to take ten minutes of your time to save thirty seconds to a hundred readers (and more importantly to save all the time wasted by comments who misunderstood part of what you said and the ensuing back-and-forth).

(I personally don't have much time to spend reading long preachy walls of texts telling me about my supposed self-hatred; I didn't downvote your post but skipped to the discussion because the post itself wasn't very engaging and seemed to get things wrong fairly quickly)

In response to Ask me anything.
Comment author: Emile 16 February 2015 05:53:55PM 5 points [-]

I suspect most people here find this post very confusing as they don't know who you are (I don't recognize your username), and it's not really clear what you're getting at or why we would want to ask you anything.

Comment author: Emile 12 February 2015 06:00:04PM 5 points [-]

A bit of a nitpick (which could explain some of the reception you're getting here): I don't think the term "Pragmatarianism" is a good description for your proposal, it's just an unrelated name that sounds good. Might as well say 'I'm calling this proposal "Sensible Tax Policy"' or 'My idea, called "Reasonablism", is that...', etc.

A more modest and descriptive name would probably be better received, especially in places who dislike marketing.

Meetup : Paris Meetup

2 Emile 10 February 2015 09:39AM

Discussion article for the meetup : Paris Meetup

WHEN: 14 February 2015 02:00:00PM (+0100)

WHERE: Café des Arts et Métiers, 51 Rue de Turbigo, 75003 Paris France

A bit of last minute organization, we had talked about it on our mailing list but hadn't settled on a date. Better late than never!

Discussion article for the meetup : Paris Meetup

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