Comment author: Desrtopa 12 September 2013 03:38:35PM 3 points [-]

There's certainly a concern, very pressing in the case of the rape example, that if the risk is too high then there's a responsibility upon society to mitigate it. In the case of the jumping off the roof example, building codes could mandate that the building be made impossible to jump off of or the surroundings be cushioned, but in this case most people would probably agree that the costs on society are too high to be justified in light of the minimal and easily avoidable risk. The case of the minimum wage worker falls somewhere in the middle ground between these, where the consequences are highly predictable, and the actions that would cause them avoidable, but with a significant cost of avoidance, like being unable to trust one's acquaintances, and unlike being unable to jump off a roof. And of course, as in both the other examples, limiting that risk comes with an associated cost.

Whether society should be structured to allow people to raise families while working on minimum wage is a question of cost/benefit analysis, which in this case is likely to be quite difficult, so it doesn't help to declare the question structurally similar to other, easier questions of cost/benefit analysis.

Comment author: Estarlio 12 September 2013 04:04:09PM *  1 point [-]

I don't disagree with you on any particular point there. However, the quote I was responding to wasn't, as I see it, attempting to explore the cost/benefit of raising minimum wage or subsidising the future of children. It was stating that they just shouldn't have kids - and in that much represented an effective blank cheque. That seems the opposite of your, much more nuanced, approach; bound by implications of fact and reason that are going to be specific to particular issues and cases and thus can't be generalised in the same way.

Comment author: Desrtopa 12 September 2013 02:18:57PM 12 points [-]

If you ignore differences in probability of outcome, you'll end up conflating arguments of enormously difficult meaningful content. For instance, both of the above also have the same structure as

Aw, you broke your leg? Well, who told you to jump off the roof of a three story building?

That an argument have the same structure need not imply that they be equally valid, if the implications of the premises are different.

Getting raped may be a possible consequence of walking into a room with a friend without a means to defend oneself, but it's by no means a probable consequence, and we have to weigh risks against the limitations precautions impose on us. If the odds of rape in that circumstance were, say, a predictable eighty percent, then for all that the advice pattern matches to the widely condemned act of "victim shaming," walking into the room without a means of self defense was a bad idea (disregarding for the sake of an argument of course everything that led to that risk arising in the first place.)

Comment author: Estarlio 12 September 2013 03:10:35PM 3 points [-]

Upvoted.

It is true that a woman in such a situation would be well advised to arm herself. However, a complaint about being raped - personal emotional traumas aside - would be a complaint about the necessity of doing so as much as anything else. The response that she should'a armed herself then doesn't address the real meat of the issue; what sort of society we live in, how we want to relate to one another; whether we're to respond with compassion or dismissive brutalism (or at what point on that scale.)

There are things that are the result of natural laws - you jump off a building with no precautions, then you're probably gonna go splat. It makes limited sense to interpret those as complaints about the laws of physics. So, the balance in those cases swings more towards preventative advice in a way that's rarely the case with issues that are the result of human action.

Comment author: Multiheaded 12 September 2013 12:45:26PM *  -6 points [-]

"Aw, you can't feed your family on minimum wage? well who told you to start a fucking family when your skills are only worth minimum wage?"

Pax Dickinson, former Chief Technology Officer at Business Insider, on rational family planning in the context of modern capitalism.

(in response to "That's perhaps an argument for the parents to starve but the children are moral innocents wrt their creation. Solutions?") - "If you remove all consequences to children from their parents stupid behavior, how will they ever learn any better?"

Him again on personal responsibility, setting proper incentives for the lazy masses, and learning one's place in society early on.

Comment author: Estarlio 12 September 2013 02:04:36PM -2 points [-]

This isn't rational. It's just elitist snobbery. You can use the exact same structure of argument with respect to anything:

Aw, you got raped? Well who told you to go into a room with your friend without a handgun on you? Didn't you know you should be prepared to kill every man around you in case they turn on you?

Structurally identical.

It's an ideology of knives in the dark, the screams of the dying and enslaved, and the blood red light of fire on steel. Those who honestly endorse its underlying principles would just as happily endorse any barbarism on the strength of the defeated's inability to escape it, provided it went on at some suitable distance from them.

Why not be honest and sum up the only real thing it says? - Vae victus.

Comment author: Multiheaded 10 September 2013 02:45:48PM -1 points [-]

"An extremist, not a fanatic."

The tagline of a blog by Chris Dillow, a Marxist libertarian.

(His comment on it, invoking Bayesian principles.)

Comment author: Estarlio 10 September 2013 03:57:27PM *  1 point [-]

Why are extremism and fanaticism correlated? In a world of Bayesians, there'd be a negative correlation. People would hold extreme views lightly, for at least three reasons. [...]

For fairness sake.

Comment author: DanArmak 03 September 2013 09:11:06PM *  4 points [-]

Why are nuclear weapons morally different from conventional bombs or machine guns or cannons?

Strategic nuclear weapons - the original and most widespread nuclear weapons - cannot be used with restraint. They have huge a blast radius and they kill everyone in it indiscriminately.

The one time they were used demonstrated this well. They are the most effective and efficient way, not merely to defeat an enemy army (which has bunkers, widely dispersed units, and retaliation capabilities), but to kill the entire civilian population of an enemy city.

To kill all the inhabitants of an enemy city, usually by one or another type of bombardment, was a goal pursued by all sides in both world wars. Nuclear weapons made it much easier, cheaper, and harder to defend against.

Tactical nuclear weapons are probably different; they haven't seen (much? any?) use in real wars to be certain.

Comment author: Estarlio 10 September 2013 01:25:13PM *  1 point [-]

Strategic nuclear weapons - the original and most widespread nuclear weapons - cannot be used with restraint.

They can. One of the problems that America had, going into the 80s, was that its ICBM force was becoming vulnerable to a potential surprise attack by the CCCP. This concerned them because only the ICBM force, at the time, had the sort of accuracy necessary for taking out hardened targets in a limited strike - like their opponent's strategic forces. And they were understandably reluctant to rely on systems that could only be used for city busting - i.e. the submarine force.

If you're interested in this, I suggest the - contemporary with that problem - documentary First Strike.

Comment author: soreff 07 September 2013 09:35:06PM *  1 point [-]

suggest that those with the power to wield nuclear weapons have in fact been more morally responsible than we give them credit.

Perhaps. Alternatively, when faced with a similarly-armed opponent, even our habitually bloody rulers can be detered by the prospect of being personally burned to death with nuclear fire.

Comment author: Estarlio 10 September 2013 01:20:19PM 1 point [-]

I've always wondered why, on discovering nuclear weapons, the leaders of America didn't continually pour a huge budget into it - stockpile a sufficient number of them and then destroy all their potential peers.

I can't think of any explanation bar the morality in their culture. They could certainly have secured sufficient material for the task.

Comment author: Moss_Piglet 04 September 2013 04:38:15PM 0 points [-]

For to translate man back into nature; to master the many vain and fanciful interpretations and secondary meanings which have been hitherto scribbled and daubed over that eternal basic text homo natura; to confront man henceforth with man in the way in which, hardened by the discipline of science, man today confronts the rest of nature, with dauntless Oedipus eyes and stopped-up Odysseus ears, deaf to the siren songs of old metaphysical bird-catchers who have all too long been piping to him 'you are more! you are higher! you are of a different origin!' - that may be a strange and extravagant task but it is a task - who would deny that? Why did we choose it, this extravagant task? Or, to ask the question differently; 'why knowledge at all?' - Everyone will ask us about that. And we, thus pressed, we who have asked ourselves that same question a hundred times, we have found and can find no better answer...

Friedrich Nietzsche

Comment author: Estarlio 10 September 2013 01:13:41PM 1 point [-]

Because it's really really useful?

Comment author: Estarlio 08 September 2013 11:15:11PM *  0 points [-]

What’s an example from your own life where building human capital and signaling quality to colleges have come into conflict? How did you resolve the conflict? Do you think you made the right choice? Is there anything you would have done differently?

When I planned to apply for university I had to find somewhere that would let me take A Levels, the cost of A Levels outside of school being prohibitive. Anyway, I eventually found a school that would let me do it. Naturally, however, the requirement to be in school from 8:30-15:00 allowed me far less time than I'd normally have to learn and pursue my own interests - the environment was utter hell if you were trying to learn in your free time. They didn't even really have a library you could go if you wanted somewhere quiet to think; they had a small room with books in that backed onto an open-plan classroom but it wasn't really suitable.

I resolved this by convincing the school change their registration procedures for the sixth form so that people could sign themselves in and out of school when they weren't meant to be in class.

Do I think I made the right choice? Well, it wasn't a bad choice. But there were better choices - I've since learned that some universities let you join without pre-existing qualifications if you do a bit of hoop-jumping, and I'd probably do that if I were doing it over again. Given what I knew then though I don't think I could have done much better.

Comment author: ChristianKl 05 September 2013 10:24:18PM 0 points [-]

Many bombing campaigns were indeed waged with an explicit goal of maximum civilian casualties, in order to terrorize the enemy into submission, or to cause the collapse of order among enemy civilians.

If Germany would have wanting to maximize causalities they would have bombed London with chemical weapons. They decided against doing so.

They wanted to destroy military industry and reduce civilian moral. They didn't want to kill as many civilian's as possible but demoralize them.

Comment author: Estarlio 05 September 2013 10:51:39PM 0 points [-]

IIRC they decided not to use chemical weapons because they were under the impression that the Allies had developed comparable capabilities.

Comment author: Estarlio 04 September 2013 11:10:25PM 15 points [-]

Foundations matter. Always and forever. Regardless of domain. Even if you meticulously plug all abstraction leaks, the lowest-level concepts on which a system is built will mercilessly limit the heights to which its high-level “payload” can rise. For it is the bedrock abstractions of a system which create its overall flavor. They are the ultimate constraints on the range of thinkable thoughts for designer and user alike. Ideas which flow naturally out of the bedrock abstractions will be thought of as trivial, and will be deemed useful and necessary. Those which do not will be dismissed as impractical frills — or will vanish from the intellectual landscape entirely. Line by line, the electronic shanty town grows. Mere difficulties harden into hard limits. The merely arduous turns into the impossible, and then finally into the unthinkable.

[...]

The ancient Romans could not know that their number system got in the way of developing reasonably efficient methods of arithmetic calculation, and they knew nothing of the kind of technological paths (i.e. deep-water navigation) which were thus closed to them.

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