Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 17 January 2012 03:47:59AM 1 point [-]

Your strength as a rationalist is your ability to be more confused by fiction than by reality.

Yet, when a person of even moderate cleverness wishes to deceive you, this "strength" can be turned against you. Context is everything.

As Donald DeMarco asks in "Are Your Lights On?", WHO is it that is bringing me this problem?

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 15 January 2012 10:43:42PM *  0 points [-]

...what if we all have some form of brain damage in common, so that none of us notice some simple and obvious fact?

Aren't things "obvious" by virtue of being noticed (or noticeABLE) by nearly everyone? Not trying to be difficult, but just trying to wrap my head around the idea that we could, all of us, be suffering such a severe cognitive malfunction. (I am thinking, here, of the liar's paradox.) And trying to wrap my head around the idea that now we could sit here in front of our computers and say anything worthwhile about it.

But for the sake of playing the game: "There are no coincidences."

Comment author: juliawise 01 January 2012 04:01:03PM *  0 points [-]

I've heard of several. I don't know stats on what proportion of Bible scholars de-convert.

Bart D. Ehrman - author of a book saying lots of the New Testament was forged

Francesca Stavrakopoulou (unclear when she became atheist)

Robert Price - went from Baptist minister to Cthulu mythologist. Not kidding.

Jacques Berlinerblau, who does say he knows few openly atheist biblical scholars.

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 08 January 2012 09:18:31PM 0 points [-]

The second sentence of this response is a non-defense of your thesis, and the rest of it does not help your case, much. I am open to evidence of your claim that "many" have become atheists. For the sake of argument, I would admit that >10% conversion rate would count as "many", as would, say, some absolute number such as 1,000 in the last 100 years.

Perhaps you can find some authority who has researched this question?

Comment author: David_Gerard 31 December 2011 01:12:36PM *  4 points [-]

There were quite a few troublemaking preachers who fell afoul of the law in Judaea at the time, many of whom were called Jesus - it was a very common name at the time.

However, one of the big problems with assuming one of these fellows (or another we have no documentation of) was the human seed for Christianity is the early Christian tradition of docetism - that Christ had no corporeal existence at all, and was just an idea. Paul of Tarsus certainly seems to think along these lines, despite the later caution against said notion in John.

This also helps explain the curious lack of non-Biblical evidence for such a person, in histories where one would expect it.

It is often noted by apologists that scholars think there's enough evidence to say there was a human seed for Christianity. However, "scholar" in this context is a weasel word - most are Christians and theologians, who would have tremendous trouble (personal and professional) coming to the opposite conclusion at all. The epistemological standards accepted in Biblical history in particular are generally bloody awful and an embarrassment to other ancient historians.

For a pile of stuff on this issue I recommend the RationalWiki article, which I have worked extensively on. (One of the other main contributors just so happens to be an atheist who was a student of Biblical history.)

(I find this stuff fascinating, if only for the psychopathology. And, as such strident atheists as Mencken, Dawkins and Hitchens have noted, you can't be highly literate in English without knowing the KJV, much as you need to know Shakespeare and Greek mythology. The trouble is that ... well, it's like you wanted to study the Odyssey or the Iliad but the only people to learn from were people who (a) actually believed in all the gods named therein (b) really wanted you to as well.)

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 08 January 2012 06:12:17AM 0 points [-]

(Restricting myself to two quibbles, for the sake of time):

I believe your description of Docetism gives the wrong idea; Docetism (as I learned it) did not say that Jesus was not there at all, but rather merely asserted that his corporeality was an illusion. The Docetists did not think of Jesus as "only an idea", but as somebody who staged a form of divine theater, as it were. (Research "Christological Heresies" for more on Docetism and its cousins.)

Quibble #2: not all biblical scholarship is as bad as you say -- much of it is quite rigorous and would be right at home in a secular university anthropology department.

Comment author: orthonormal 04 January 2012 01:15:45AM 5 points [-]

Welcome!

If by "rationalist", the LW community means someone who believes it is possible and desirable to make at least the most important judgements solely by the use of reason operating on empirically demonstrable facts

You'll be relieved to know that's not quite the Less Wrong dogma; if you observe that your conscious deliberations make worse decisions in a certain sphere than your instincts, then (at least until you find a better conscious deliberation) you should rely on your instincts in that domain.

LWers are generally optimistic about applying conscious deliberation/empirical evidence/mathematical models in most cases besides immediate social decisions, though.

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 08 January 2012 05:51:04AM 1 point [-]

Thanks for the introduction and welcome. Upvoted.

Comment author: imd 05 January 2012 08:51:07AM -1 points [-]

All the kinds of knowledge you describe are subclasses of rational knowledge. Is there irrational knowledge?

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 08 January 2012 05:17:31AM 0 points [-]

According to classical philosophy (e.g. Aristotle), sense knowledge is knowledge, but knowledge of a kind which does not depend on a rational faculty. One could call that irrational, a-rational, non-rational, pre-rational, etc., depending on the how one has sliced up the phenomenology.

Comment author: David_Gerard 01 January 2012 02:10:48PM *  2 points [-]

This is, in practice, a form of equivocation between epsilon uncertainty and sufficient uncertainty to take seriously as an argument.

  1. There is technically no such thing as certainty.
  2. Therefore, the uncertainty in [argument I don't like] is non-negligible.

Step 2 is the tricky one. I suggest reviewing But There's Still A Chance, Right? Humans are, in general, really bad at feeling the difference between epsilon uncertainty and sufficient uncertainty to be worth taking notice of.

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 01 January 2012 05:10:26PM 2 points [-]

I reviewed your link--thanks, that was interesting.

Maybe we're in agreement. Let me try a more audacious assertion...

All I was saying was that practical demonstration or persuasion takes place within an unquestioned frame of reference. For purposes of the topic at hand, I would say, for example, that using the available evidence, I could convince 9 of 12 jurors under American rules of evidence and jury instructions applicable to civil trials, that Jesus of Nazareth was a flesh and blood historical figure. I think I could do this every week for a year and win 90% of the time. If we change the rules to "establish it beyond a reasonable doubt to 12 of 12 jurors", then my success rate goes way down, obviously.

(Of course, I am assuming that I make no intentional misrepresentations and call only expert witnesses with recognized technical qualifications and unimpeachable character. I.e., no "funny stuff".)

In other words, I am claiming to not be anywhere in the neighborhood of epsilon.

Comment author: wedrifid 31 December 2011 08:25:36PM 2 points [-]

Although I am Catholic, I acknowledge that by certain standards of proof, the existence of the Jesus as described in the Gospels is uncertain.

Those pesky standards that don't consist of "faith". ;)

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 31 December 2011 10:13:37PM *  0 points [-]

Winky-face noted and appreciated!

But seriously, by my accounting, every standard of evidence I know includes an element of faith. The only differences between them are (a) what is taken on faith and (b) how credulous that faith is.

Namely, I find faith elements in believing:

  • first/second/third-hand reports, even by trained, neutral observers

  • expert consensus

  • single expert opinion

  • by contradiction

  • the evidence standards of American civil and criminal trials (note the plural, "standardS". The standards are different between them.)

  • induction, including (perhaps) mathematical induction

  • "engineering quality" proof

  • "mathematician quality" proof

My professional practice as an aircraft mishap investigator is to identify and apply the highest feasible standard from the above list, based on what information is available. "Best practice" in this industry dictates that selection and application of a standard of evidence is a matter of prudential judgement, based on the consequences and probabilities of being wrong, the resources available (evidence, time and $), while being scrupulously open about ones methods.

On historical questions about events of 20 centuries ago, the quality of evidence is not very good. About pretty much everything. What we are left with is Bayesian stuff. Anybody who goes to 0% or 100% draws the raised eyebrow from me. :-)

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 31 December 2011 12:55:05PM 1 point [-]

Documentary evidence that dates from the time of Jesus' supposed life and death, which describes a religious leader called Jesus who started a splinter sect of Judaism would do it.

What documentary evidence for any other religious leaders that started other splinter sects of Judaism at the time do you have?

If you don't have any direct evidence for any specific one of those leaders, does that mean there didn't exist any such splinter sects at the time?

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 31 December 2011 08:24:01PM 1 point [-]

Thank you. This is a concise representation of the general objection I was going to make. Finding evidence of ANYTHING in that era that meets modern standards is often very difficult, if not impossible. Nearly all history from that era can be, and is, challenged.

I have yet to see a statement from PhilosophyTutor justifying his choice for a standard of evidence on this question.

Comment author: PhilosophyTutor 31 December 2011 05:30:14AM 2 points [-]

The preponderance of the evidence would seem to be that he really did exist.

Bible scholars have a consensus that this is the case, although whether they are doing any actual scholarship with regard to the issue is questionable. Atheists by and large do not become Bible scholars, and the mind-killing effects of religion mean that theists tend to do notably poor scholarship in this particular area.

However when a rationalist tries to drill down to the actual evidence you find that nothing is there, apart from Bible scholars reading the Bible and saying "this Paul guy seems legit, I don't think he'd have made that up".

Comment author: FeatherlessBiped 31 December 2011 07:41:50PM *  0 points [-]

The Jesusmyththeory wiki article describes a number of significant rigorous, academic (and non-friendly) challenges to the accuracy of the accounts of Jesus in the Gospels. Every honest person acknowledges uncertainty, exaggeration, and literary license. The question (for me) is: disregarding the deluded and dishonest, how would the honest brokers vote? I don't claim to have the answer.

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