Comment author: JoshuaZ 01 May 2012 02:44:14PM 4 points [-]

Some beliefs that are usually incorporated to support evolution are:

-The world is purely physical/material in nature

-There is no such thing as real agency (free will)

There is no real purpose/meaning in the universe

I'd be curious where you can point to these being used as evidence for evolution. You won't see them in any major biology textbook. Note that even if they are used that way that doesn't become a problem with evolution by itself.

. If for example a person does not accept that all of existence is physical in nature, then he is more likely to question the 'evidence' of evolution.

This statement is probably true. But why is it true? It doesn't have anything to do with evolution as an issue and primarily has to do with the fact that most classical religions have creation stories and other aspects which make evolution uncomfortable for them, and people who are religious form a substantial overlap with people who make claims about non-physical or non-material existence. Similar remarks apply to your other bits. These are people who are unhappy with evolution not because of evidence but because it goes against their theological predilections.

Comment author: Ghazzali 17 May 2012 08:16:38PM -1 points [-]

Biology textbooks reflect the belief that "The world is purely physical/material in nature" by not even entertaining the possibility that there could be a super natural cause for anything. Any natural activity is assumed to have a physical/material cause. This is philosophy, so it may not be physically written out that way in the biology textbooks, but everything in the textbooks points to this major world assumption.

Same with the issue of free will. Any act by a species is seen in a way that needs to be explained in chemical/biological/mechanical manner. There is no room for this mysterious/other-worldly notion called free will.

Same with the idea that there is no real purpose or meaning to the universe.

As for this statement:

If for example a person does not accept that all of existence is physical in nature, then he is more likely to question the 'evidence' of evolution.

It is not necessarily true because of specific theological beliefs only. Lets say a person has absolutely no theological beliefs from any religion, but he does not automatically assume that all of existences is physical/mechanical. That person, because of this world view by itself, now all of a sudden has a higher chance of rejecting evolution than someone who only believes in a physical/mechanical world view.

The real debate is on the level of philosophy, not science. That is because ones science is driven by his philosophical interpretations....whether he realizes it or not.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 17 May 2012 07:50:23PM 1 point [-]

Evolution is seen by many people through the lens of materialism/atheism. That means that while studying evolution these people ASSUME the world has no creator and and is purely physical and closed system, free from anything super-natural....and so on.

In that way, any discovery in biology is treated in this interpretation and millions of dollars of research money is used to search for evidence in that way.

If we found in every single mammal a long conserved sequence in its genome which had its own extra code to help conserve it and it spelled out in easy substitution code the entire text of some religious text, you can be very sure that every biologist would stand up and take notice. Moreover, your claim doesn't really follow since there are many religious biologists (like Ken Miller, a very religious Catholic) who are perfectly ok with evolution and the entire standard understanding of biological history.

Comment author: Ghazzali 17 May 2012 08:05:37PM -3 points [-]

Your extreme example of evidence in a creator is a valid point, but only to a certain limit. Maybe the grand creator does not want to make things that obvious? Maybe he puts just enough evidence in the universe for people of sincerity for the truth to be lead to the conclusion of design, and not an inch more? The point is we dont know, and the fact that God is not coming down from heaven and telling us he exists is NOT rational evidence that he does not exist and is not the designer of the universe.

As to those Christians who believe in evolution, they have simply developed a personal theology and see science to that end. They are no different from the other religion views, or no religious view.

The real battle is not in science, it is in these 'world-views' that cause us to see science in a particular way. I'm not saying we cannot debate what is the truth, only saying that the debate is a little deeper than saying 'sciences says this' or 'science says that'. The debate is more abstract and rational than it is empirical.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 17 May 2012 07:38:43PM *  4 points [-]

At this point, your argument really doesn't amount to anything other than apologetics. In this context, we've looked at every single thing that we know for sure is designed, and we can see simple common patterns (which moreover are patterns that make sense for designers to use). It is possible that you are missing part of the point so lets make it clear: most of what I've talked about above has nothing to do with "good" or "bad" design. Products that really suck (e.g. Windows ME) show the same basic patterns. The only one of the above that hits on the quality of the design is efficiency. Things like reuse are simply habits of design.

At this point, you are claiming that something is a philosophical presupposition, but even without that class of presupposition, we get the same result by simply looking at the designed objects around us. To then claim that no matter what we see it may or may not be designed makes the claim unfalsifiable.

To focus in on those sporadic examples of design that we do not understand and to leave everything else that seems so complicated and fine tuned for life is the ultimate example of how a philosophy is driving your view of science and the world around you.

They aren't sporadic examples, they are the entire tree of life. To use just one example from my list- we see essentially no examples of reuse of the same designs or parts of designs. And this is true not just for examples in specific body parts (such as the panda's thumb, or the mammalian eye) but for whole species. In isolated areas like Australia and Madagascar, species have filled nearly identical niches to the niches filled in much of the rest of the world, exactly as you'd expect from evolution, and not what we see human desigers do.

At that point, you have a deity who is not only making things not as a designer would be likely to make them, but you have a deity that is making things in a way that is actively deceptive. The deity has made life which down to the last detail looks old and evolved.

It may help to ask yourself what it would take for you to accept evolution. Is there any evidence that would do so? If not, the problems of philosophical presuppositions would seem to be if anything an issue of projection.

Comment author: Ghazzali 17 May 2012 07:55:27PM -1 points [-]

My point is that you can argue rationally about whether there is design in the universe, but you cannot argue whether the design is good or bad. The later is incoherent. Maybe the Grand Designer does want to make things confusing? Maybe he has put evidence of design in the universe, but not absolute evidence for whatever reason He wants? You can make the point that the design is good or bad, but that point has no real consequence to the question about whether there is design in the first place. Thats my point.

Another interesting point;

Do you agree that design does indeed exist anywhere in the universe? Lets say in the form of human design? If you do believe that humans actually do design, and it seems like you do because you are judging the design in nature based on human experience of design, then you have to come up with an explanation of how purely mechanical/physical beings produced this design to begin with?

Comment author: Bugmaster 02 May 2012 09:09:30PM 5 points [-]

FWIW, I have heard a more generalized version of Ghazzali's argument, which goes something like this:

The way a person sees the world is colored by his preferences and biases. We all have them. You personally place a very high value on empirically reproducible results; this is what you call "truth", and you are strongly biased in favor of it; your insistence on proper logic and evidence stems from this core belief. There's nothing wrong with that, but I personally don't value this specific notion of "truth" as much as you do. Instead, I place a higher value on personal happiness/simplicity/social approval/niceness/whatever. Thus, I choose to believe in an unseen designer/universal consciousness/karma/etc., and it doesn't matter to me whether there's any evidence for it or not. Evidence is your thing, not mine.

I'm not endorsing this worldview (and I'm probably not even rendering it properly here), but I do believe it to be pretty much argument-proof. You can't have a rational discussion with someone who denies the value of rational discussions.

Comment author: Ghazzali 17 May 2012 07:44:06PM -2 points [-]

Not quite what I am saying.

I do believe in the truth of empirically reproducible results. However, other than stating facts I do not see how these results force me to believe in anything. It is my belief system or personal philosophy that makes me conclude a interpretation of those facts.

For example:

Evolution is seen by many people through the lens of materialism/atheism. That means that while studying evolution these people ASSUME the world has no creator and and is purely physical and closed system, free from anything super-natural....and so on.

In that way, any discovery in biology is treated in this interpretation and millions of dollars of research money is used to search for evidence in that way.

Something as so fundamental to us as consciousness and free will is ignored as illusion because it doesnt fit into these peoples world view of a purely mechanical universe. Where did they get this idea that the universe is purely mechanical and material?? NOT from science, it is from their personal philosophy or belief system. Everything in science is interpreted towards that end.

Those who believe in intelligent design also have their assumptions, and will look at evolution in that way. They will tend to be looking for evidence of a super natural involvement in biology, and dedicate their research dollars in that direction.

For you to accept the intelligent design bias and not see your bias is amazing.

Science is neutral, it is your belief system that interpretes these 'facts'. The real argument is in the varying philosophies, not in the actual data of science.

Comment author: RobertLumley 02 May 2012 07:41:20PM 2 points [-]

First of all, what are you defining as a "world view" and why is that a useful definition to have? It seems like you're trying to say "You believe things, beliefs are dogmas, you're being dogmatic". That is whole manners of cheating.

Secondly, you're right. It is possible that the universe was intelligently designed. But the Kolmogorov complexity formulation of Occam's Razor necessarily requires I assign that a very small probability prior. In order to simulate a universe designed by God, a computer must first simulate God, including why ey would create the universe the way that it is, then simulate that universe, as opposed to just simulating the universe.

Comment author: Ghazzali 17 May 2012 07:30:38PM -2 points [-]

Mathematically you have the same problem whether you believe in God or you don't. If you say that there is no God you must still account for these two questions:

  1. How did the universe begin from nothing, and why?
  2. If the universe did not begin from nothing, what did it begin from and why is it not considered part of the universe so that we say it is the creator of the universe but not an extension of it?

And if you say 2. you still have to go back to one.

The same mysteries are there whether you believe in God or not. It is your world-view, your faith that leads you to conclude in God, not science. For a Muslim, for example, it is his belief in the words of Prophet Muhammad that he is really communicating with God, and so on. For the atheist/materialist it is his world-view that he rejects any kind of notion that a human being has these powers. And so on...

Science itself is neutral on these issues, it must be seen and interpreted by philosophies and beliefs.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 03 May 2012 03:35:49AM *  9 points [-]

So there's some seed of a potentially valid point here. Phrased in a Bayesian fashion, if one assigns low enough priors to certain hypotheses, one isn't going to practically consider those hypotheses unless one has ridiculous levels of evidence. So is something like that happening here?

I think the conclusion is "no". There are many religious individuals who have no objection to evolution. The objections stand essentially from religions which have creation stories which are important to the theology. For example, in Christianity, the Fall is very important, and you get a lot of Christians who object to evolution. Islam and Judaism have as important theological points that there deity is the creator, but the method of creation isn't as important, and one sees less objection to evolution in those religions. Among some religions which don't have any issues of this sort, or have very weak or very seldomly directly intervening deities (such as some forms of New Age religions) one sees close to no objections to evolution (although there are some prominent exceptions such as Deepak Chopra). But in all these cases, there are people who adopt an essentially similar theological standpoint and yet accept evolution, and this includes full-out major denominations such as Roman Catholicism. Now, it is possible that they simply haven't really adapted a consistent world-view (consistency isn't a human strongpoint), but that's an argument that would need to be made in detail.

In this case you see the amazing complexity of life as a product of chance/random events and not because of some genius unseen designer. The beautiful world you are describing could be interpreted as being the product of either, and the science itself would not change.

So this actually isn't the case. Evolved life doesn't look like what you might expect from a designer. When we looked at designed objects we see all sorts of commonalities that make sense from a design standpoint: we see efficiency, modularity, and reuse of parts between designs. We don't see any of those in evolved life.

Large amounts of life-designs are highly inefficient, almost as if they were added haphazardly by evolution. The giraffe's nerves which loop all the way from the head down through the neck and then back up again to the head are a good example.

We don't see modularity- pieces don't develop and integrate separately except at a very weak level. Thus birth defects that cause one organ to not grow frequently cause problems throughout the body or at very minimum in neighboring organs.

And we don't reuse of design pieces except for the very basic aspects that form a perfect nested hierarchy. This is in contrast to for example computers. This would be akin to having only mice on one type of computer, and only joysticks on another, and the only computers with USB drives were a subset of the computers with mice that didn't overlap at all with some subset of computers with mice with CD drives. But we don't see that with computers, or cars, or any other designed object that has many different designed versions. They reuse the same ideas and technologies. This is something designers do for obvious reasons: you don't need to reinvent the wheel. But evolution (aside from some very tiny examples of horizontal evolution where a single gene or small number of genes has been copied over due to viruses and a few neato parasites like my favorite parasite, Wolbachia) doesn't have that option. Pandas would have a much easier time if they had a real thumb instead of an inefficient bone spur. A direct design would have copied over the great ape thumb over or use a very similar design.

So this really is an example where one can look at what one would expect from design and from evolution and conclude that evolution makes more sense in context. This doesn't rule out less direct intervention, say a deity setting up life on the planet, letting it evolve and then showing a few thousand years ago to talk to a desert tribe and tell them not to eat shellfish. But that's a distinct issue from evolution except in so far as that if the same text that claims this deity did intervene also claims that the deity did design everything from scratch, then that's a reason to maybe doubt the text. But this has nothing to do with belief structures or as the Bayesian would say, extreme priors. This is about evidence.

Comment author: Ghazzali 17 May 2012 07:20:32PM -3 points [-]

To claim that the world is not designed because, based on your knowledge of design, it is not a good design is a very weak argument. If the world was designed by a supreme being, your knowledge and His knowledge would be like comparing the intelligence of a rock to a human being. It simply does not compare. All the supposed weaknesses you claim in the design of the cosmos comes from your extremely limited knowledge of reality and cannot compare to the wisdom behind the design of the Creator. Now, this is all the case only if you concede there is a grand designer. If you do not hold that view, then of course this argument does not hold. But as long as you do hold the view, even as a devil's advocate, you must concede that judging the 'quality' and nature of the design as being below standards is rather incoherent. In other words, there may be reasons to those imperfect designs that you are pointing towards that you do not understand. You are not the supreme designer of the universe.

On top of that, it amazes me that a person who knows science will actually think in this way to begin with. That the complexity of a cell, let alone the entire brain, let alone the entire body, would not put you in awe over their design is beyond me. To focus in on those sporadic examples of design that we do not understand and to leave everything else that seems so complicated and fine tuned for life is the ultimate example of how a philosophy is driving your view of science and the world around you.

Comment author: RobertLumley 01 May 2012 03:47:32PM 6 points [-]

For what it's worth, I used to draw a distinction between macro and micro evolution. I always argued that it made little to no sense for species to evolve sexual reproduction - and how would that work anyway?

But I remember exactly when I changed my mind. I was in a genetics class, and we were learning about sex pili - they're basically channels that bacteria can form to pass DNA between themselves. I realized that life (and evolution) are a whole hell of a lot more complicated than I gave them credit for, and that perhaps evolution is the tiniest bit more creative than I am.

Comment author: Ghazzali 02 May 2012 03:44:22PM -4 points [-]

You have to at least recognize that you are looking at science using a world-view (philosophy). In this case you see the amazing complexity of life as a product of chance/random events and not because of some genius unseen designer. The beautiful world you are describing could be interpreted as being the product of either, and the science itself would not change. You have chosen to see it through a particular lens. Both lenses are fundamentally not scientific in nature, they are belief structures.

Comment author: Desrtopa 01 May 2012 03:53:21PM 7 points [-]

Can you explain how the view that there is purpose, meaning, agency or design in the universe helps us address any anomalies better? With examples?

Comment author: Ghazzali 02 May 2012 02:27:08PM -4 points [-]

Lets say that the evidence seems to point towards design in the universe. Should we ignore that because we think a chance-world view would bring us more scientific achievement? If we do such a thing, would there be a good chance that what we call scientific achievement today would turn out to be delusion in the future because it is based on a forced world-view?

Comment author: Hul-Gil 01 May 2012 12:32:37AM 5 points [-]

That depends on how you define 'system'. Is 'system' the entire biological existence of earth? In that case, yes evolution would be a mathematical certainty eventually. But is system a specific species? In that case evolution would only occurr within those species.

He goes on to tell you exactly what systems: any with random heritable changes that can selectively help or hinder reproduction. This would mean both all life on earth that fits within that definition, and any particular species also under that umbrella.

It seems to me like you're trying to make a distinction between "microevolution" and "macroevolution" here, but I may be misreading you. If you are, however, notice that thomblake's process makes no distinction between them; to suppose one but not the other could occur, you'd need a specific mechanism or reason.

Also, time is another factor. Your explanation logically does not necessitate that evolution has already happened, only that it will eventually happen.

No, it necessitates that it is happening and has happened in any such system. The process, that is. You're correct if you're just saying that the process may not have resulted in any differentiation at any given time.

Comment author: Ghazzali 01 May 2012 03:07:31PM -4 points [-]

I think that is where we differ, it is in the macro-micro evolutionary distinction. That mathematical model does not hold any water if you distinguish between species.

Also, I would say that the word 'random' is in essence a philosophical term, not scientific. It is a term of interpretation.

Comment author: Hul-Gil 01 May 2012 12:59:35AM *  3 points [-]

I addressed this here, but I missed a few things. For one, I address the extremity of the hypotheticals in the linked post, but I didn't point out, also, that these things seem extreme because we're used to seeing things work out as if evolution were true. These things wouldn't seem extreme if we had been seeing them all along; it's precisely because evolution fits what we do find so well that evolution-falsifying examples seem so extreme. Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian would probably not seem so extreme to a creationist; it's what they'd expect to find (since all species supposedly lived alongside one another, AFAIK).

For two:

We are limited to these two conclusions and nothing else. Therefore any hit on a theory that advocates one, is a support for the other.

I don't think that follows. A hit on a chance-favoring theory could be a "hit" in such a way as to support a different chance-favoring theory, rather than any favoring design.

I think this pushes scientists (even sub-consciously) to view evolution almost as a belief system rather than a science.

Can you point out some ways that scientists view evolution as a belief system rather than science?

Comment author: Ghazzali 01 May 2012 02:27:38PM -6 points [-]

I don't think you can assume that all critics of evolution believe all animals lived alongside one another. I doubt they are all evangelical Christians.

You are correct that a hit on a chance-favoring theory could be a support for another chance-favoring theory, but that is only if there are other chance-favoring theories competing with eacother in at least some way. When you have a theory as monolithic in nature as evolution, it is for all intents and purposes THE chance-favoring theory. Things could change in the future though, and maybe another chance-favoring theory could at least get some foothold. However, as long as we are in our current situation any support of evolution is a hit on design theories in general and vice-versa.

Some beliefs that are usually incorporated to support evolution are:

-The world is purely physical/material in nature

-There is no such thing as real agency (free will)

  • There is no real purpose/meaning in the universe

These are philosophical/belief points that directly or indirectly help a persons belief in evolution. If for example a person does not accept that all of existence is physical in nature, then he is more likely to question the 'evidence' of evolution. If he further believes in free-will (real free will) then he is even more likely to question evolution. And if he believes there is a purpose to the universe....and so on.

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