In response to Zombies Redacted
Comment author: Gram_Stone 03 July 2016 03:02:41PM 3 points [-]

I skipped the stuff on p-zombies when I read R:AZ because I experienced difficulty reading 'Zombies! Zombies?' and I didn't expect it to be as useful as what came later in the book.

Now I feel silly, because this time my reading experience was fluent and I had that extra processing motivation from the content's 'recency'.

Now I think it didn't have much at all to do with how useful I thought it would be at the time. It seems more like I asked "Are there minutiae on Penrose?" rather than "Will this be useful to know?"

After all, I didn't read the rest of the book via some mantra of instrumentality; not really. Instrumental value was a nice side effect like profits to the cheesecake industry is a nice side effect of consuming cheesecake. I really read it because it was enjoyable to read.

So, this content now seems accessible to at least one person to whom it did not seem accessible before. That seems like a plausible goal of someone rewriting something.

In response to Buying happiness
Comment author: Gram_Stone 17 June 2016 04:32:10PM 1 point [-]

Great review, Gareth. I found #8 especially interesting.

I wonder about this:

DGW cite various studies showing that people expect to be made markedly unhappier by losses than they actually are if the losses occur, and that people expect to regret bad outcomes more than they actually do (we overestimate how much we will blame ourselves, because we underestimate how good we are at blaming anything and anyone else for our misfortunes).

The so-called impact bias is certainly a thing (I hope to write on it soon for many reasons; I don't think it's been treated on LW), but I wonder if that's not too precise of a bet to be making on the mechanism by which that occurs, at this point, although I'll note that I haven't read the source paper.

Also, I see that there have been some pretty substantial criticisms made (against the original source) by the commentariat (I found this cool/impressive); maybe it would be interesting to include an addendum with the good ones included?

And I assume this is a typo:

That is: why choosing what to spend on, take some time to consider less obvious aspects that you'd otherwise be tempted to neglect.

I imagine you meant to write 'when'.

Comment author: CronoDAS 15 June 2016 12:29:18PM 2 points [-]

Overfitting is a problem of "thinking" the data given is more strongly determined than it is. Hindsight bias seems similar - we feel that things couldn't have turned out other than the way they actually did.

Comment author: Gram_Stone 15 June 2016 04:40:37PM 1 point [-]

Just as "Does induction work?" and "Why does induction work?" are two different questions, we can distinguish the questions "Do people fail to seek alternative explanations?" and "Why do people fail to seek alternative explanations?" The answer to the first is quite obviously "Yes," and the second is harder to answer, as questions of that form often are.

Before trying to answer it, it seems like a good idea to point out that overfitting is a simple name for a complex phenomenon, and that overfitting as a mistake is probably overdetermined. Statistical inference in general seems far more cognitively complex than the tasks issued to subjects in hindsight bias experiments. So there may very well be multiple explanations to the question "Why do people overfit the data?"

But, I agree with you that both phenomena seem like an example of a failure to seek alternative explanations; specifically, a failure based on the quiet inference that seeking an alternative explanation doesn't seem necessary in each case.

We see in the article that people infer from the difficulty of seeking alternative explanations that those alternatives are less plausible and that their focal explanation is more plausible. We also see that when you make them discount the relevance of this difficulty, thinking of alternatives has the effect that we initially and naively thought that it would: the more alternatives you imagine, the less determined the past seems.

I haven't gotten into it yet, but we use these phenomenal experiences of ease and difficulty to make many, many other judgments: judgments of truth, credibility, beauty, frequency, familiarity, etc. A particularly interesting result is that merely writing a misleading question in a difficult-to-read font is enough to increase the probability that the subject will answer the question correctly.

It seems the reason overfitting happens at all is because there is no clear reason at the time to seek an alternative explanation, besides the outside view. "But it fits so well!" the one says. The experience is so very fluent. What is there to discourage the statistician? Nothing until they use the model on untrained data. They believe that the model is accurate right up until the moment that their perception of the model becomes disfluent.

And at this point it begins to look related to the hindsight bias experiments, at least to me. But I also don't think that they are especially related, because my answer to a question like "Is overfitting related to availability bias?" or "Is overfitting related to the planning fallacy?" would probably be quite similar. I would maintain that it's the deep cog-sci results about the effect of phenomenal experiences on judgment that are the important relation, and not the more superficial details like whether or not the task has to do with inventing alternative hypotheses.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Comment author: CronoDAS 14 June 2016 06:35:26PM 2 points [-]

I wonder if hindsight bias is related to overfitting?

Comment author: Gram_Stone 14 June 2016 07:55:35PM 0 points [-]

Why do you wonder that? If you care to elaborate.

Comment author: SquirrelInHell 14 June 2016 01:50:47AM 0 points [-]

Meta:

the third section is written in a way that makes it hard to parse. E.g.:

Control group subjects who listed no alternative thoughts replicated previous results on the hindsight bias.

The previous setup was different, and it's unclear what it means to have "replicated results". Sure, it's possible to guess, but it obfuscates your writing a lot. Or if you want people to guess, just put a question in the article telling them to do so.

Comment author: Gram_Stone 14 June 2016 01:59:14AM 0 points [-]

The previous setup was different, and it's unclear what it means to have "replicated results".

I meant that the control condition replicated (reproduced, demonstrated once more) the result found in previous publications on the hindsight bias, namely that subjects view known outcomes as far more inevitable than they would have before the outcome was known. Maybe "results from previous studies" would fix this...? I thought it was clear enough, but I would.

Attempts to Debias Hindsight Backfire!

7 Gram_Stone 13 June 2016 04:13PM

(Content note: A common suggestion for debiasing hindsight: try to think of many alternative historical outcomes. But thinking of too many examples can actually make hindsight bias worse.)

Followup to: Availability Heuristic Considered Ambiguous

Related to: Hindsight Bias

I.

Hindsight bias is when people who know the answer vastly overestimate its predictability or obviousness, compared to the estimates of subjects who must guess without advance knowledge.  Hindsight bias is sometimes called the I-knew-it-all-along effect.

The way that this bias is usually explained is via the availability of outcome-related knowledge. The outcome is very salient, but the possible alternatives are not, so the probability that people claim they would have assigned to an event that has already happened gets jacked up. It's also known that knowing about hindsight bias and trying to adjust for it consciously doesn't eliminate it.

This means that most attempts at debiasing focus on making alternative outcomes more salient. One is encouraged to recall other ways that things could have happened. Even this merely attenuates the hindsight bias, and does not eliminate it (Koriat, Lichtenstein, & Fischhoff, 1980; Slovic & Fischhoff, 1977).

II.

Remember what happened with the availability heuristic when we varied the number of examples that subjects had to recall? Crazy things happened because of the phenomenal experience of difficulty that recalling more examples caused within the subjects.

You might imagine that, if you recalled too many examples, you could actually make the hindsight bias worse, because if subjects experience alternative outcomes as difficult to generate, then they'll consider the alternatives less likely, and not more.

Relatedly, Sanna, Schwarz, and Stocker (2002, Experiment 2) presented participants with a description of the British–Gurkha War (taken from Fischhoff, 1975; you should remember this one). Depending on conditions, subjects were told either that the British or the Gurkha had won the war, or were given no outcome information. Afterwards, they were asked, “If we hadn’t already told you who had won, what would you have thought the probability of the British (Gurkhas, respectively) winning would be?”, and asked to give a probability in the form of a percentage.

Like in the original hindsight bias studies, subjects with outcome knowledge assigned a higher probability to the known outcome than subjects in the group with no outcome knowledge. (Median probability of 58.2% in the group with outcome knowledge, and 48.3% in the group without outcome knowledge.)

Some subjects, however, were asked to generate either 2 or 10 thoughts about how the outcome could have been different. Thinking of 2 alternative outcomes slightly attenuated hindsight bias (median down to 54.3%), but asking subjects to think of 10 alternative outcomes went horribly, horribly awry, increasing the subjects' median probability for the 'known' outcome all the way up to 68.0%!

It looks like we should be extremely careful when we try to retrieve counterexamples to claims that we believe. If we're too hard on ourselves and fail to take this effect into account, then we can make ourselves even more biased than we would have been if we had done nothing at all.

III.

But it doesn't end there.

Like in the availability experiments before this, we can discount the informational value of the experience of difficulty when generating examples of alternative historical outcomes. Then the subjects would make their judgment based on the number of thoughts instead of the experience of difficulty.

Just before the 2000 U.S. presidential elections, Sanna et al. (2002, Experiment 4) asked subjects to predict the percentage of the popular vote the major candidates would receive. (They had to wait a little longer than they expected for the results.)

Later, they were asked to recall what their predictions were.

Control group subjects who listed no alternative thoughts replicated previous results on the hindsight bias.

Experimental group subjects who listed 12 alternative thoughts experienced difficulty and their hindsight bias wasn't made any better, but it didn't get worse either.

(It seems the reason it didn't get worse is because everyone thought Gore was going to win before the election, and for the hindsight bias to get worse, the subjects would have to incorrectly recall that they predicted a Bush victory.)

Other experimental group subjects listed 12 alternative thoughts and were also made to attribute their phenomenal experience of difficulty to lack of domain knowledge, via the question: "We realize that this was an extremely difficult task that only people with a good knowledge of politics may be able to complete. As background information, may we therefore ask you how knowledgeable you are about politics?" They were then made to provide a rating of their political expertise and to recall their predictions.

Because they discounted the relevance of the difficulty of recalling 12 alternative thoughts, attributing it to their lack of political domain knowledge, thinking of 12 ways that Gore could have won introduced a bias in the opposite direction! They recalled their original predictions for a Gore victory as even more confident than they actually, originally were.

We really are doomed.


Fischhoff, B. (1975). Hindsight is not equal to foresight: the effect of outcome knowledge on judgment under uncertainty. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance, 1, 288–299.

Koriat, A., Lichtenstein, S., & Fischhoff, B. (1980). Reasons for confidence. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Learning and Memory, 6, 107–118.

Sanna, L. J., Schwarz, N., & Stocker, S. L. (2002). When debiasing backfires: Accessible content and accessibility experiences in debiasing hindsight through mental simulations. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory, and Cognition, 28, 497–502.

Slovic, P., & Fischhoff, B. (1977). On the psychology of experimental surprises. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance, 3, 544–551.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 13 June 2016 07:10:35AM *  6 points [-]

I'm sorry for discouraging you. I think writing the posts you described is a great idea. I hope that if you write them, people who've read this will be more inclined to upvote them if they like them, given increased awareness of the incentives problem I described.

Another option is to pursue multiple angles of attack in parallel. My angle requires a programmer or two to volunteer their time (may as well contact Scott now if you're interested!); your angle requires people who have ideas to write them up. My guess is that these requirements don't funge against each other very much. Plus, even if the community ultimately decides to go elsewhere, I'm sure your ideas will be welcomed in that new place if you just post whatever you were going to post to LW there, and that will be a valuable kickstart.

I also agree that having people repeatedly say "LW is dying" can easily become a self-fulling prophecy. Even if LW is no longer a check-once-a-day kind of place, it can still be a perfectly fine check-once-a-week kind of place. I probably should have been more careful in my phrasing.

Comment author: Gram_Stone 13 June 2016 04:11:48PM 0 points [-]

IAWYC.

Comment author: Gram_Stone 12 June 2016 10:22:07PM 8 points [-]

Well, this is discouraging to someone who had the opposite reaction to ingres' recent survey analysis. I heard, "Try to solve the object-level problem and create content that meets the desiderata that are implicit in the survey results."

I was going to start writing about feelings-as-information theory; Kaj Sotala introduced moods as information in Avoid misinterpreting your emotions, lukeprog mentions it briefly in When Intuitions Are Useful (which Wei Dai thought might be relevant to metaphilosophy), and gwern mentions related work on processing fluency here. There are simple but interesting twists on classic, already-simple heuristics and biases experiments that everyone here's familiar with, debiasing implications, stuff about aesthetics, stuff on how we switch between Type 1 and Type 2 processing, which is relevant to the stuff lukeprog was getting into with Project guide: How IQ predicts metacognition and philosophical success, and what Kaj Sotala was getting into with his summaries of Stanovich's What Intelligence Tests Miss.

I was just about to write another post about how thinking of too many alternative outcomes to historical events can actually make hindsight bias worse, with explanations of the experimental evidence, like my most recent post. I don't know how to do more for the audience than do things like warn them about how debiasing hindsight can backfire.

And there's other stuff I could think to write about after all of that.

There are quite a number of people coordinating to fulfill the goal of revitalizing LW, and I wonder if something like this couldn't have waited. I mean, everyone just told everyone exactly what everyone's doing wrong.

Comment author: Romashka 11 June 2016 04:57:55PM 1 point [-]

Yes, thank you. I mean, I am probably having an attack of stupidity, but what exactly did they find? I understand the conditions, I just keep missing the results:( Sorry if you have already stated it above.

Overall, this was very interesting to read. Please continue!

Comment author: Gram_Stone 11 June 2016 09:15:54PM 1 point [-]

This is what I identify as the 'results' in my earlier comment:

Instead of using the feeling (which would make your assertiveness rating go down with the number of examples, because it would seem harder to think of them), you use the amount of examples (which makes your assertiveness rating go up with the number of examples).

I can offer you the source, I suppose? There are numbers in that. It should be easier to understand than it would have been if I hadn't introduced you to the experiment designs.

Comment author: Romashka 11 June 2016 05:36:01AM 1 point [-]

So what did they find in the third experiment?

Comment author: Gram_Stone 11 June 2016 12:43:58PM 1 point [-]

If I ask you to think of times that you were assertive, and there's music playing in the background and I tell you that this music makes it easy to remember times that you were assertive, then you won't use your feeling of easiness as a source of information in your judgment. Instead of using the feeling (which would make your assertiveness rating go down with the number of examples, because it would seem harder to think of them), you use the amount of examples (which makes your assertiveness rating go up with the number of examples). The main point of the third experiment is to show that there are conditions under which both interpretations of the availability heuristic are valid. Sometimes we use feelings of ease and difficulty, sometimes we use mental content.

Does that make sense?

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