Comment author: Salemicus 21 November 2014 12:18:38PM *  20 points [-]

For some time I've been thinking about "narcissistic contrarians" -- those who make an art form of their exotically counterintuitive belief systems, who combine positions not normally met in the same person.

Ah, another irregular verb.

  • I am a deep and original thinker, synthesising good ideas from multiple sources without regard to ideology.
  • You are a magpie, with second-hand beliefs cobbled together without structure.
  • He is a narcissistic contrarian, making an art form of his exotically counterintuitive belief system, combining positions not normally met in the same person.

I am deeply suspicious when people try to explain away their opponents' beliefs, rather than defeat them intellectually.

Comment author: HalMorris 21 November 2014 03:11:56PM 1 point [-]

Ah, another irregular verb. I am a deep and original thinker, synthesising good ideas from multiple sources without regard to ideology.

I'm going over the verbs trying to locate what you're referring to as an irregular verb. Am I making a mistake? Does "irregular verb" have some metaphorical connotation I'm not aware of?

You seem to follow with 3 likely different interpretations of the same behavior. If I understand it correctly, that is kind of interesting, I'll warrant

I am deeply suspicious when people try to explain away their opponents' beliefs, rather than defeat them intellectually

So you have a criteria for being skeptical of (I won't say "explaining away", which would be presumptuous) my arguments having to do with the style of my argument rather than its content. That is good - I think we all should have such criteria, unless we plan to intellectually take apart all of the thousands upon thousands of assertions that cross our paths.

I have been proposing one such. You just proposed another, one which is generally pretty good.

Once you criticize something as "to explain away" most of what else you say is apt to be redundant.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 November 2014 02:13:18AM 13 points [-]

That was impressively opaque

I'll unroll. "Word inflation" means that with time the intensity signaled by words decreases. Used to be you felt good on occasion, you felt excellent rarely, and you felt awesome maybe a few times in your life. Nowadays if you say "good" it means "pretty much sucks", if you say "excellent" it means "OK", and if you say "awesome" it means "I"m fine".

4chan has pretty extreme word inflation. "I'm gonna rape you bitches" generally means "I will attempt to do something unpleasant to you" and the actual intent behind it might be something like kicking someone out of an IRC channel.

So all that vocabulary in the quote upthread doesn't actually mean what it literally means. In reality it means "I want to make some status noises and that's the only way I know how".

By the way, is it really "bog-standard"? I thought it was "hog-standard".

Evidently in your area the hogs are standard, and in my -- bogs :-/

Comment author: HalMorris 21 November 2014 04:11:40AM 0 points [-]

Thanks for a good humored response.

Yeah, awesome is one that gets me.

Comment author: Lumifer 21 November 2014 01:13:34AM 4 points [-]

No contradiction, but some implications. Implications mostly having to do with meaning behind the words and word inflation.

Comment author: HalMorris 21 November 2014 01:19:44AM 0 points [-]

That was impressively opaque.

By the way, is it really "bog-standard"? I thought it was "hog-standard".

Comment author: drethelin 21 November 2014 12:50:44AM 5 points [-]

I can see why you might want to invent a hefty phrase to bludgeon people you disagree with or want to make fun of but I can't really endorse it.

Comment author: HalMorris 21 November 2014 01:00:33AM *  3 points [-]

Well, now I feel bludgeoned. To refer to your judgement or theory about what is going on with me as simply "seeing", and embed it in a subordinate clause is an old rhetorical trick, which I think we should avoid here.

But really, I am very interested in the problem of knowing (and somehow having that knowledge be transmittable) who it is profitable to listen to, and who will lead one astray, because I see a breakdown of common sense about this in the face of the profusion of "information" sources we have these days. This concern started when I began to get forwarded emails from my mother with proofs that Obama is a Muslim and that sort of thing. I worry that we may be going from a mediocre order of things, like the days of 3 major TV channels, where there is a hell of a lot going on that we don't get (but we're not apt to get all that excited and be stampeded over a cliff like the Germans were in the 1930s) to something worse than mediocre.

Comment author: bogus 20 November 2014 11:52:21PM 1 point [-]

mostly it reinforces general distrust of "intellectual elites"

Meh. You don't have to be a NRx to acknowledge that distrust of intellectuals can be reasonable. Arguably, identifying with the Brahmin class is a political trap LW should stay clear of.

Comment author: HalMorris 21 November 2014 12:41:07AM *  2 points [-]

When you call it the "Brahmin class" dismissing it becomes redundant.

I think we need institutions though, in which the "marketplace of ideas" isn't just <B>the</B> marketplace. Lesswrong is one of them, as are universities.

I believe that the rules of the game in academic research can be very productive as long as there is a there there. I tried to model this as "discovering natural machines", which is what I think Newton did, or "Finding your Invisible Elephant" -- if the blind men actually have an elephant then they may be able to map it if they go about it the right way. But if they have no elephant - one is hugging a tree trunk, another has hold of a snake and another is pushing on a wall - no amount of "scientific method" will help them find the nonexistent elephant. This is why I think some disciplines, like literary criticism and some branches of sociology, despite having peer-reviewed journals and all that, simply go round in circles, and lead to distrust of others, which have something to offer.

Narcissistic Contrarianism

-1 HalMorris 21 November 2014 12:19AM

The recent discussion on neo-reactionary-ism brought out some references to (intellectual hipsters and) meta-contrarianism linking to a 2010 posting by Yvain.

For some time I've been thinking about "narcissistic contrarians" -- those who make an art form of their exotically counterintuitive belief systems, who combine positions not normally met in the same person.  There can be good reasons for being a contrarian.  If you're looking for a scarce resource, it may help to not look where everyone else is looking, hence contrarian stock market investors may do very well, if they actually see something others don't; same with oil explorers.  Less creditably, I believe Nate Silver's The Signal and the Noise made reference to the way a novice pundit or prognosticator may have nothing to gain by saying anything like what other people are saying, and much to gain, in taking some wild extravagant position or prediction if it happens to attract an audience others have ignored, or if the predictions happens to be right.

The Narcissistic Contrarian is much like the Intellectual Hipster, but more extreme.  The Intellectual Hipster usually stakes out a few unusual or incongruous positions, to create an identity that stands out from the crowd.  The Narcissistic Contrarian is constantly dazzling her fans.  Something written by Camille Paglia made me think of the idea in the first place.  Nicholas Taleb is another suspect although I think he started out with some good ideas.  If she/he manages to get a fan-base, they are apt to be pretty worshipful -- they can't imagine being able to come up with such a wild set of insights.  The contrarianism is for its own sake rather than an attempt to find and settle on some previously undiscovered thing, so it particularly likely to lead people astray, into unproductive avenues of thought.

Does anyone else think this is a real and useful distinction?

Comment author: HalMorris 20 November 2014 10:54:32PM 2 points [-]

Actually, I hope someone else will respond to the original question of 'what's been your recent experience', and we don't get totally bogged down in "micro-debates"

Comment author: bogus 20 November 2014 10:30:37PM *  2 points [-]

At worst, it's a continuation of the idea that writing in a style of a non-white cultures is somehow worse or less professional.

That's an interesting idea, actually. Is there any evidence that the peculiar writing featured in the article is actually a distinctive style as opposed to, for lack of a better term, "bad English"?

Comment author: HalMorris 20 November 2014 10:47:21PM 4 points [-]

That's a bit snarky, but yes, "correct style" may be arbitrary, but without it, we'd drift towards not being able to understand each other. All told, I think a professor (esp. in a thesis writing prep class) is expected to correct students' grammar, and this one was treated shabbily.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 November 2014 09:58:32PM 5 points [-]

what falenas108 describes sounds kind of horrific to me

This is entirely bog-standard garden-variety plain-vanilla 4chan fare.

Comment author: HalMorris 20 November 2014 10:30:57PM 6 points [-]

No contradiction there, in my opinion.

Comment author: bogus 20 November 2014 10:17:33PM *  2 points [-]

Don't get me wrong, I also think the incidents are horrific, and I'm far from condoning those responsible. I'm just saying that expecting an environment that's completely pristine and free of any kind of tension is entirely unrealistic, and we should not be assuming that as a sensible short-term goal. If there's anything that can be done to help this situation, it's expanding our notion of "cross-cultural competency and communication" to include personal strategies for being more resilient and assertive in the face of perceived slights to one's status (what "microaggressions" seems to unpack to, AIUI). Because I don't think you can have one without the other.

Comment author: HalMorris 20 November 2014 10:30:17PM -1 points [-]

personal strategies for being more resilient and assertive in the face of perceived slights

I totally agree that we need that.

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