Comment author: Kevin 08 December 2011 03:06:24AM *  3 points [-]

Well, there seems to be a real correlation with happy meat and taste quality, so that this farmer was decisively winning international foie gras taste competitions is probably real evidence that his geese were happier. Personally, I'd much rather be running around like mad worrying about the coming winter than being force fed. And in geese, the worry-based gorging is much more natural than the alternative of force feeding.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 07 March 2012 02:47:17PM 0 points [-]

Visually pleasing food tastes better than visually unpleasing food; fragrant food tastes better than rank food; if ethical meant tastes better than unethical meat, it has nothing to do with the meat, and everything to do with the interconnected nature of the taster’s sensory network.

Comment author: Nornagest 06 March 2012 08:59:21PM *  3 points [-]

If that change continues to accelerate, eventually it will reach a point where it moves beyond the limitations of existing tracking technology. At that point, it becomes purely a force. That force could result in positive impacts, but it could also result in negative ones

This is essentially a restatement of the accelerating change model of a technological singularity. I suspect that most of that model's weak predictions kicked in several decades ago: aside from some very coarse-grained models along the lines of Moore's Law, I don't think we've been capable of making accurate predictions about the decade-scale future since at least the 1970s and arguably well before. If we can expect technological change to continue to accelerate (a proposition dependent on the drivers of technological change, and which I consider likely but not certain), we can expect effective planning horizons in contexts dependent on tech in general to shrink proportionally. (The accelerating change model also offers some stronger predictions, but I'm skeptical of most of them for various reasons, mainly having to do with the misleading definitivism I allude to in the grandparent.)

Very well; the next obvious question is should this worry me? To which I'd answer yes, a little, but not as much as the status quo should. With the arguable exception of weapons, the first-order effects of any new technology are generally positive. It's second-order effects that worry people; in historical perspective, though, the second-order downsides of typical innovations don't appear to have outweighed their first-order benefits. (They're often more famous, but that's just availability bias.) I don't see any obvious reason why this would change under a regime of accelerating innovation; shrinking planning horizons are arguably worrisome given that they provide incentive to ignore long-term downsides, but there are ways around this. If I'm right, broad regulation aimed at slowing overall innovation rates is bound to prevent more beneficial changes than harmful; it's also game-theoretically unstable, as faster-innovating regions gain an advantage over slower-innovating ones.

And the status quo? Well, as environmentalists are fond of pointing out, industrial society is inherently unsustainable. Unfortunately, the solutions they tend to propose are unlikely to be workable in the long run for the same game-theoretic reasons I outline above. Transformative technologies usually don't have that problem.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 07 March 2012 02:33:22PM -1 points [-]

This is essentially a restatement of the accelerating change model of a technological singularity.

I was not familiar with the theory of technological singularity, but from reading your link I feel that there is a big difference between it and what I am saying. Namely that it states, "Technological change follows smooth curves, typically exponential. Therefore we can predict with fair precision when new technologies will arrive..." whereas I am saying that such prediction is impossible beyond a certain point. I would agree with you that we have already pasted that point (perhaps in the 70s).

Very well; the next obvious question is should this worry me? To which I'd answer yes, a little, but not as much as the status quo should. With the arguable exception of weapons, the first-order effects of any new technology are generally positive.

This I disagree with. If you continue reading my discussion with TimS you will see that I suggest (well Jean Baudrillard suggests) a shift in technological production from purely economic and function based production, to symbolic and sign based production. There are technologies where the first-order effects are generally positive, but I would argue that there are many novel technological innovations that provides no new functional benefit. At best, they work to superimpose symbolic or semiotic value upon existing functional properties; at worst, they create dysfunctional tools that are masked with illusionary social benefits. I agree that these second order effects as you call them are slower acting, but that is not an argument to ignore them, especially since, as you say, they have been building up since the 70s.

I agree that the status quo is a problem, but I do not see it as more of a problem than the subtle amassment of second order technological problems. I think both are serious dangers to our society that need to be addressed as soon as possible. The former is an open wound, the latter is a tumor. Treating the wound is necessary, but if one does not deal with the later as early as possible it will grow beyond the point of remedy.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 March 2012 10:34:29PM 2 points [-]

Yes, in my experience -- which includes observing others -- first world kids who have the luxury of setting high expectations for themselves tend to beat themselves up most when they are in the midst of discovering whether or not they can actually meet those expectations. They do that for a few years and then figure out how hard they're actually capable of working, and at what pace.

I think the self-abuse is just another way of describing what it's like to not know how to intelligently push yourself. You end up pushing yourself too hard before you establish a sustainable rhythm.

you are somewhere around 28-32 and currently feeling very confident/happy with your life navigation in relation to your earlier twenties?

I'm 33. I would call myself only moderately confident and happy, but that in itself is a major improvement on my 20s... when I was floundering around doing the above. I'm still getting better at it all the time. Around 28-29 I passed some kind of competency threshold and got slightly more competent than incompetent, with an attendant drop in pain from self-abuse.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 07 March 2012 12:14:24AM 1 point [-]

I completely misread self-flagellation as a hyperbole for self-criticism. Thanks for substituting it with self-abuse to help me out. I really do apologize if my tone or words came off as hostile or aggressive. I really like your idea

first world kids who have the luxury of setting high expectations for themselves tend to beat themselves up most when they are in the midst of discovering whether or not they can actually meet those expectations.

It is exciting finding something you have never thought of yourself. I think it is a good idea, but I still do not agree that 28-29 is the endpoint. I think you are correct in calling it a threshold, but not a final threshold.

I am a runner. When I first started running I could barely run 2 miles. It was hell. I kept trying to push myself to do it faster, which ultimately was self-abuse. My muscles were not ready, my heart was not ready, my bones were not ready, and mentally I was not ready. After about a month of running 2 miles on the weekdays and 3-4 miles on Saturday, I finally found myself able to run at a speed I liked without killing myself. I find this to be analogous to you at 28-29 being able to manage your time where you were able to be competent without self-abuse. My point though is after breaking that threshold my body was ready to undertake a new threshold. I then began running 5 miles every weekday and 7 on the weekend. The first time I did this it felt exactly the same as two miles, hell again. However, my adjustment to running 5 miles only took 2 weeks, instead of the month it had taken me to get used to 2 miles. When I transitioned to 7 miles daily it still took about two weeks to get used to it without any pain, but the pain was significantly less than my starting pains. I know this is an analogy, but I believe to some extent this applies to life navigation as well. It is probably a much slower process, but I think it is possible to reach new competency thresholds until somewhere between 40-60. I apologize for the large range; this is a hypothesis that I have yet to have the means or method to verify. The idea though is that there is some point in age where you cease to be able to learn radically new systems of thought, habit, or emotion.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 March 2012 09:37:07PM *  4 points [-]

If the majority of your day is spent justifying doing things you find to be annoying, you might want to rethink some of your routines.

Yes. But IME one's early to mid-twenties are for self-flagellation. You essentially become your own parent, and you don't start out good at it. The effect starts to peter out around 28 or so. Ideally you end up with a more precise model of your strengths and weaknesses than you had at 18.

Makes me wonder about the average age of the "optimization culture" on LW and its associated blogs and forums and such.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 06 March 2012 10:12:51PM 2 points [-]

But IME one's early to mid-twenties are for self-flagellation

I am guessing IME means (in my experience?). I agree that the early twenties of a person's life should ideally be a time of exploration where unhindered by health, career, or familial obligations a person is able to be critical of their chosen course. That said, in my opinion, self-flagellation is taking it too far. What's more, while I do believe that this period of self-criticism and path seeking has an endpoint, I do not think you have accurately placed it.

it starts to peter out around 28 or so.

What was your rationale for making this claim? I hope you do not take offense at this, but I am guessing that your reasoning is due to the fact that you are somewhere around 28-32 and currently feeling very confident/happy with your life navigation in relation to your earlier twenties? I don’t think broad generalizations about the end of a stage in life should be made purely from personal experience, especially when you are still culturally young.

I would suggest that there might still be dimensions of your strengths and weakness that have yet to be explored, and to not give up on the self-flagelating yet.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 06 March 2012 07:06:44PM *  5 points [-]

I’m lucky enough to have been born with the sort of brain that keeps my overall mood on an even keel, no matter how many annoying things I force myself to do.

From my understanding of emotional ranges I would say this statement places too much importance on a biological type. There are definitely people who are born with chemical imbalances that result in fluctuating, diminished, or exaggerated emotional ranges, but for the majority, it is more accurate to say that emotional response habitually and cognitively shaped. I would suggest that this statement is more accurate of your situation:

I like analyzing myself, and so most of my basic emotions are accompanied by thoughts about those emotions, and I suspect that this process of deliberate analysis causes the actual emotions to be less intense.

You have developed a belief system that has led to a pattern of habituation that dampens and redirects your emotional outputs.

Strong belief in rational/other ideology -> pursuing certain actions -> overtime actions become habitualized-> actions develop new cognitive and emotional responses that result in dampening and redirecting strong emotional output.

I would suggest that when you are faced with situations that contradict your ideological base it questions the entire system. You are a cognitively gifted person, so if you encounter one of these situations your mind goes into overdrive reanalyzing all previous evaluations. The result is all the "little annoying things that you have forced yourself to do" over the past months lose their rationale causing a huge flood of negative/doubtful emotions. I have experienced this myself, in my mind I think of it as the over thinkers equivalent of anger management issues.

People who have anger management do not know how to deal with little things that make them mad. Their anger is improperly managed and slowly builds up into a giant torrent of emotions, until the time comes when they explode.

My advice would be a better balance between growth and fortification. Growth comes from pushing yourself to reach new limits; however, if you do not give yourself a break every now and then it is dangerous. Fortification is dealing with the immediate protection of happiness and stability. The majority is excessive in their fortifications and lacks an impetus for growth. You are the minority in your incredibly strong impetus for growth. Just tone it down sometimes. If you like something sometimes you need to do it regardless of rationale. If you don’t like something, sometimes you need a break from it, regardless of rationale. If the majority of your day is spent justifying doing things you find to be annoying, you might want to rethink some of your routines.

Best of luck.

Comment author: Rhwawn 05 March 2012 11:15:57PM -2 points [-]

This article relies much too strongly on personal anecdote. This seems to be an ongoing problem with many of your articles, Swimmer.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 06 March 2012 05:42:48PM 1 point [-]

Rhwawn,

I am new to this community, so perhaps you can help me understand why you think a personal anecdote weakens/detracts from an essay.

Comment author: Airedale 06 March 2012 12:54:37AM 13 points [-]

I would personally prefer to see this in Discussion. Your personal story is interesting (and I recognize some of it in myself), but I don't think the personal background (plus your brief request for recommended literature, plan for Part II, etc.) is a sufficiently fleshed out idea at this point given that you aren't yet at the point of offering any guidance on solving the problem. Of course, Part II's literature review/recommendations may be of more benefit to the community and be a better fit for Main.

Comment author: HungryTurtle 06 March 2012 05:40:48PM *  -1 points [-]

Aristotle was an advocate of what he called practical wisdom. Practical wisdom is knowing when it is appropriate to break the rules. I understand and personally agree with your statement, but I also believe that when someone has the courage to share a personal problem the priority should be showing support to your community member.to your community member.

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