Comment author: Owen_Richardson 02 September 2011 08:23:39PM *  0 points [-]

Explain, accurately and briefly but with enough detail that someone could give the method a go if they wanted, just what the hell Direct Instruction actually is.

I haven't done so not because it hasn't occurred to me to try, but because if it's even possible (which I doubt), it's hard enough to do that I still haven't figured out how.

Did you read my short analogy explaining how this difficulty feels to me from my perspective? It feels like trying to explain what physics is and why it's so powerful as well as interesting in itself, to someone who has never seen physics, hasn't grown up in a world filled with obvious examples of the amazing engineering it makes possible, etc.

Really really really try yourself to: "Explain, accurately and briefly but with enough detail that someone could give the method a go if they wanted, just what the hell physics actually is", keeping in mind that your audience is someone who has never heard of it or seen anything other than pre-physics level technology.

I wish I could find the exact source for this, but I remember once reading a quote of some famous Roman general saying that military technology was at the highest limit it could reach, with the ballista or something representing the absolute apex of possible achievement.

Imagine you're addressing this to contemporaries of that guy.

Comment author: Jem 02 September 2011 09:00:09PM *  4 points [-]

But physics and DI are different in this important way: physics is a classification of knowledge, and DI is a technique for communicating knowledge. It's reasonable to ask for a functional description of a technique, even though it wouldn't be reasonable to ask for a functional description of a classification of knowledge. I don't think your analogy works.

You're claiming that DI is a way of teaching people things. You'd like to teach us what DI is (or, at least, we're giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that this is your goal). However, you've currently been successful in teaching (as near as I can tell) exactly zero of us what DI is. If you've succeeded in teaching zero people the thing you're trying to teach, I suggest this is evidence that you don't have a good teaching method.

Here are some things I don't yet care about, and can't care about until I know what DI is. If your response addresses these non-concerns, my doubts about your stated goal will increase:

  • I don't care if DI is effective.
  • I don't care if DI is well thought-of by others.
  • I don't care if DI is the result of a new paradigm or an old one.

Here are two things that I do care about:

  • I'd like to know what DI is.
  • I'd like to know if you, personally, are a member of the Church of Scientology.

Sorry I have to include that last one, but your behavior so far absolutely mimics a common CoS MO of introducing a new program which is vague on details but turns out, in practice, to be Scientology (see, for example, Narconon).

Comment author: JoshuaZ 29 August 2011 02:44:47AM *  8 points [-]

Ok. Wow. New chapter up.

The ritual references Doctor Seuss (explicitly), Lovecraft, Slayers, Hellraiser, and Warhammer. Edit: And Zelazny. Did I miss anything else?

And the example ritual which Quirrel references is if I'm not mistaken the failed attempt to summon Death in The Sandman. (Is that correct? I don't have a copy on me, but the ingredients certainly sound similar to that. If not, what is this referencing?)

That was an amazing mix of seriousness, darkness, humor (especially the way end), and with a bit of rationality and psychology thrown in also. That chapter was amazing.

Edit: I'm a little worried. We know that a lot of fictional stuff in non-HP fiction turns out to be real in this universe. I hope Harry hasn't accidentally triggered something.

Edit: Also, this does raise a serious question: Since Harry has read Lord of the Rings and Lovecraft and a fair bit of other stuff, how much of what he is making up is made by him from fiction he knows and how much is stuff that he happens to write that sounds good that happens to (at a meta level) reference fiction in our universe? For example, it is extremely unlikely although just potentially possible for Harry to have seen some version of Slayers. But this seems unlikely.

Comment author: Jem 29 August 2011 06:17:41PM 2 points [-]

I think you can add Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the list. "Acathla" was the name of the demon that the big bads were attempting to summon (or reawaken) at the end of Buffy season 2.

Comment author: NihilCredo 25 August 2011 09:01:12PM *  2 points [-]

This is a monolingual dictionary of medieval Latin, and the uses of "nihilitas" it quotes have a distinct moral connotation of humility/self-abjection (kind of like the English "I am nothing before you"); I can't find other uses of the term either. So I would probably steer away from 'nihilitas'.

Depending on how 'physical' that "nothingness" is supposed to be, I would go for either just "nihilum" (more abstract) or "inanitas"/"vacuitas" (more concrete), as in the translation of Genesis "et terra erat vacuitas et inanitas" ("and the Earth was waste and void").

Also, "neque nec" seem to usually be placed next to each other.

Finally, I think "supernus" has more of an absolute than relative meaning, i.e. something that is up high in the heavens, rather than specifically above the subject of the paragraph. Wouldn't you just use "insuper" in the latter case?

Comment author: Jem 26 August 2011 12:15:01AM 0 points [-]

You're right about nihilitas, it seems to have shifted sense since classical times. I should have been double-checking my work with a medieval dictionary. I do like inanitas.

I agree that supernus is absolute rather than relative, but I read the English version as having the absolute meaning: "Only nothingness above [i.e., in the heavens, where you'd expect gods to be, but they aren't, so there's nothingness instead]" so it seems like it fits.

Comment author: NihilCredo 25 August 2011 10:29:14PM *  0 points [-]
  • Neque: you're right about this one. I was sure I had seen 'neque nec' used contiguously, but I must have misremembered as I can't find an example of that. Fixed.

  • I know "insuper" is an adverb; it works here just like "above" (which is also an adverb) does in English, i.e. they predicate an implicit verb "est / to be". EDIT: Just to be safe, I quickly checked the medieval dictionary I linked before, and it has plenty of instances of 'insuper' with ellipses of the verb.

Comment author: Jem 25 August 2011 11:41:35PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the link, that's a very nice medieval resource. I agree now that insuper here is okay, there were a couple of uses very much like yours. Interestingly, it seems that in the majority of those medieval citations, insuper wasn't related to location or being used as an adverb at all...it was being used more often as a preposition (with accusative) meaning "beyond" or "in addition to".

Comment author: NihilCredo 25 August 2011 09:40:25PM *  4 points [-]

I'm going to offer my own translation, taking a few more liberties:

Nullus salvator salvatori,

nullus Dominus defensori,

neque pater nec mater,

solum insuper nihilum.

(Backslation: "No saviour for the saviour / no Lord for the champion / nor father or mother / only nothingness above". Switched "father" with "mother" because the 'kp' in "nec pater" sounds cacophonic to me. Note that "insuper" would NOT rhyme with "mater", since the "u" is short and thus the stress falls on the "i", which is why I put it in the middle of the line.)

Comment author: Jem 25 August 2011 10:16:45PM 1 point [-]

This is also very good. I like the choice of nullus. A couple of quibbles, the first of which I'm more sure about than the second:

  • neque can't be postpositive...it doesn't have the usual word order freedom, it needs to be before whatever it's negating and joining.

  • (less sure on this one) insuper is an adverb rather than an adjective, so it can't be used as a predicate for the noun nihilum. The public-domain dictionary I checked Lewis' An Elementary Latin Dictionary has it as a qualifier for the verb in all three of the citations it gives for the relevant sense.

Comment author: Jem 25 August 2011 05:00:25PM 0 points [-]

What a great idea! I've sent you my strategy.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 23 August 2011 08:36:52PM 6 points [-]

Maybe I'm pushing my luck, but "Nihil supernum"?

Comment author: Jem 23 August 2011 09:06:19PM 4 points [-]

Yes, that's grammatical (as would be "nihilum supernum"). Those are closer to English "nothing" than "nothingness", and maybe too short to fit with the preceding lines, but I don't know if that's an issue.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 23 August 2011 05:18:57PM 3 points [-]

"Nihilitas superna"?

Comment author: Jem 23 August 2011 06:55:03PM 4 points [-]

Yes, works great.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 23 August 2011 06:11:57AM 4 points [-]

Modifying the English isn't unthinkable. What sounds right in Latin?

Comment author: Jem 23 August 2011 04:10:43PM *  5 points [-]

Here are some possibilities:

nulla res curans superna -> nothing above [i.e., in the heavens] that cares
nihil nisi stellae supernum -> nothing above but stars
nihil nisi inanitas supernum -> nothing above but the void (or, nothing above but emptiness)
nihilitas inanis superna -> an empty nothingness above (maybe too redundant?)

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 August 2011 11:27:45PM 4 points [-]

Thanks! Here for comparison is Google's translation:

Non habet soter salvator.
Vindex est dominus no,
nec mater nec pater,
modo nihil est.

If "Soter" or "Sotehr" means "savior", as I seem to recall from Aristoi, that might suit the meaning well; and if the first line makes sense grammatically, of which no clue hath I, it has a good ring. "Defensori" does sound closer to the intended meaning than "victori" or "vindex". And whether "modo nihil est" means at all the same thing as "modo nihilitas supera", I've likewise no clue but it sounds like the "above" part was left out. If it actually does convey the same meaning, it is more compact.

If this version works, it would have a powerful ring to it:

Non habet soter salvator.
Neque defensori dominus,
nec pater, nec mater,
modo nihil est.

But one suspects that what's actually needed is:

Non est salvatori salvator.
Neque defensori dominus,
nec pater, nec mater,
modo nihilitas supera.
Comment author: Jem 23 August 2011 12:28:12AM 6 points [-]

Yes, soter is a good word for savior. Google has the grammar wrong (it doesn't seem like it's even trying to decline, all the nouns were left as nominative). If you want to keep the parallelism you had in the English ("No X hath the X") it would need to be

Non est soteri soter

or

Non habet sotera soter

If you use the second, I guarantee you will get mail from well-meaning fans saying "You did that wrong! You need an accusative there, and Sotera isn't accusative!". Oddly, it is, though I would never have guessed without looking it up...apparently it was borrowed from Greek and didn't ever regularize; it kept on being declined as though it were Greek. I like the version with "est" way better anyway, and lines two and three would also need to be slightly different grammatically if you switch to "habet"

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