Comment author: ChristianKl 02 July 2016 08:28:41PM 1 point [-]

Why? They know it's wheat. Why should they be able to track arbitrary characteristics of the wheat? It's like asking them to track which wheat is grown on Tuesdays, or which wheat is grown by Jews. Their system wouldn't be set up for it.

Supermarkets where I come from do check characteristics of ingridients like pesticide content. They generally care about providing quality products.

If a supermarket wouldn't do quality management of their suppliers I would consider that bad.

Containing peas is a subcase of a general requirement "list all ingredients". It certainly implies that consumers do and should care about the ingredients.

Information provision is not about whether people should care about it but whether they do. In this case plenty of people do care about.

But anyway, that's fighting the hypothetical.

I don't see the point of why pointing out that a given example doesn't work is bad. Don't make fictional examples that wouldn't work in reality in the first place, if you want to train reality based reflexes.

Being in touch with reality is a lot more valuable than being in touch with hypotheticals.

for instance "this produce comes from a company whose owner has had an abortion".

Let's say a business owner asks prospective employees whether they had an abortion and refuses to hire people who had. Do you think that courts would allow that? No, they wouldn't. They would likely argue that it's a protected characteristic.

As I said above, I don't think information about categories that belong to protected characteristics should be required.

But even if you would actually engage with what I'm saying and pick a characteristic of the grower that isn't a protected characteristic, that's not about the ingridients of the food. GMO's do contain different proteins that otherwise wouldn't be in the product.

Comment author: Jiro 02 July 2016 09:55:39PM *  0 points [-]

Supermarkets where I come from do check characteristics of ingridients like pesticide content. They generally care about providing quality products.

If a supermarket wouldn't do quality management of their suppliers I would consider that bad.

That is meaningless unless

  1. "quality management" can refer to arbitrary characteristics, in which case, no, most supermarkets will not keep track of whether the wheat was harvested on Tuesdays, or
  2. You're assuming that there is something special about GMO such that it counts as "quality management" while whether the wheat was harvested on Tuesdays doesn't.

Information provision is not about whether people should care about it but whether they do. In this case plenty of people do care about.

I'm pretty sure plenty of people care whether the produce is picked by illegal immigrants, at least to the extent that if they're told, it would influence their decision. I'm also pretty sure people would care if the company owner is gay, or has had an abortion, or any of a number of politically charged things that we don't demand should go on labels.

Don't make fictional examples that wouldn't work in reality in the first place, if you want to train reality based reflexes

There's a difference between not working for reasons that affect the point and not working for reasons that don't. The example is of a politically charged trait. If one politically charged trait isn't workable, pretend I instead mentioned another that is.

If you don't think abortion is a good example, change it to "has been disclosed as a campaign donor to a politician of party X" or "has refused to take an IQ test/has tested at an IQ of _" or whatever politically charged example you think is valid.

Comment author: ChristianKl 02 July 2016 09:19:48AM 1 point [-]

The compliance costs include the costs of tracking the wheat through the processing chain just in case it's using GMO wheat Monday and non-GMO wheat Tuesday.

I think businesses that sell food products should already track in detail what kind of wheat their suppliers provide.

because they would assume that labels are only for things the consumer is supposed to care about .

No. If I look at the ingridients list of the Thai-Soap it tells me that it contains peas, but it's not something I'm "supposed to care about". I'm not buying Thai-Soap based on whether or not they contain pea's and the obligation to provide that information doesn't imply that the government thinks I should care about it.

Would you favor the idea of putting labels on food stating whether it has any ingredients that were picked by illegal immigrants?

That's like the some US states requiring taxes for illegal drug sales. I don't think that trying to enforce labeling is the most straightforward way to deal with something that's illegal.

Comment author: Jiro 02 July 2016 04:25:17PM 0 points [-]

I think businesses that sell food products should already track in detail what kind of wheat their suppliers provide.

Why? They know it's wheat. Why should they be able to track arbitrary characteristics of the wheat? It's like asking them to track which wheat is grown on Tuesdays, or which wheat is grown by Jews. Their system wouldn't be set up for it.

the obligation to provide that information doesn't imply that the government thinks I should care about it.

Containing peas is a subcase of a general requirement "list all ingredients". It certainly implies that consumers do and should care about the ingredients.

I don't think that trying to enforce labeling is the most straightforward way to deal with something that's illegal.

Using produce picked by illegal immigrants in your product is not itself illegal. Furthermore, it may be that the politicians in charge of the labelling laws are not the same politicians in charge of the border laws, so we might have lax border enforcement while labelling laws are enforced for real.

But anyway, that's fighting the hypothetical. If you wish, substitute some other politically charged trait that faces right-wing opposition; for instance "this produce comes from a company whose owner has had an abortion".

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 July 2016 02:24:21PM 0 points [-]

There are issues with compliance costs that make it hard to force disclosure of all information. The compliance costs fo writing GMO wheat instead of wheat on a ingridient box are little.

I would be happy if the companies would have a choice to put up a scan code that provides all relevant information in exchange for not having to write things on the label.

Comment author: Jiro 01 July 2016 07:22:10PM 0 points [-]

The compliance costs include the costs of tracking the wheat through the processing chain just in case it's using GMO wheat Monday and non-GMO wheat Tuesday.

Also, mandating the label would make people think that GMO is dangerous, because they would assume that labels are only for things the consumer is supposed to care about .

Would you favor the idea of putting labels on food stating whether it has any ingredients that were picked by illegal immigrants?

Comment author: Lumifer 30 June 2016 02:39:18PM *  6 points [-]

I'm theorizing that the VCs believed that the fact that the big companies did not make any such product proved there was no profitable demand for it, because the market worked.

That doesn't look like a viable hypothesis because if it were true, such people would not be VCs at all.

Generally speaking, you seem to expect perfection in business agents. Clearly, this is not so in reality. "The market" is not each individual agent, it is the sum of them all. Moreover, the market works by self-correcting which implies that there are a LOT OF MISTAKES being made all the time. The market is successful because it provides negative feedback to those who make mistakes, so on the average it does what it does quite well, but it would be an error to think that each individual decision is optimal.

The market failure is that competition has not driven the cost down close to the cost of production.

Nope. Reality is primary, theories are secondary. In real life the markets drive the price down to the cost of production only occasionally. If your theory says they should, it's the theory that needs to be adjusted.

Comment author: Jiro 01 July 2016 07:14:55PM 0 points [-]

In real life the markets drive the price down to the cost of production only occasionally. If your theory says they should, it's the theory that needs to be adjusted.

In real life, you can find the $30 bottle available for $4.29. I don't know if that's exactly the cost of production, but it's low enough that we can stop talking about how this is a market failure because the product can only be sold at high prices.

Comment author: Jiro 30 June 2016 09:20:38PM *  2 points [-]

"Market failure" in this case means competition has not driven the price down to a socially-optimal level.

If I check out your own source by going to that link, Amazon provides a link to Medique 10133 Alcalak Sugar Free Tablets, 100-Pack, for $10.23. Furthermore, this seller easily found with Google has the same"$30 bottle" available for $4.29.

Comment author: Jiro 30 June 2016 09:07:30PM *  1 point [-]

I think the cup holders in cars argument was refuted by this comment to your original post: http://lesswrong.com/lw/h2a/the_cupholder_paradox/8nre

And more generally and perhaps more importantly, this one: http://lesswrong.com/lw/h2a/the_cupholder_paradox/8nsg

Comment author: TimS 28 June 2016 08:16:20PM *  2 points [-]

No good arguments, or the weight of the arguments for X are greater than the weight of the arguments against X?

Comment author: Jiro 29 June 2016 06:56:47PM -1 points [-]

You know, I did mention weighing arguments in my post.

Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 28 June 2016 04:01:49PM *  2 points [-]

Say you are a strong believer and advocate for the Silicon Valley startup tech culture, but you want to be able to pass an Ideological Turing Test to show that you are not irrational or biased. In other words, you need to write some essays along the lines of "Startups are Dumb" or "Why You Should Stay at Your Big Company Job". What kind of arguments would you use?

Comment author: Jiro 28 June 2016 08:11:32PM *  1 point [-]

Being a believer in X inherently means, for a rationalist, that you think there are no good arguments against X. So this should be impossible, except by deliberately including arguments that are, to the best of your knowledge, flawed. I might be able to imitate a homeopath, but I can't imitate a rational, educated, homeopath, because if I thought there was such a thing I would be a homeopath.

Yes, a lot of people extoll the virtues of doing this. But a lot of people aren't rational, and don't believe X on the basis of arguments in the first place. If so, then producing good arguments against X are logically possible, and may even be helpful.

(There's another possibility: where you are weighing things and the other side weighs them differently from you. But that's technically just a subcase--you still think the other side's weights are incorrect--and I still couldn't use it to imitate a creationist or flat-earther.)

Comment author: waveman 25 June 2016 07:13:11AM 0 points [-]

It's easy to talk now about it, harder if you actually lived in Germany at that time and had to really fear the SS.

Indeed. I remember an IT project manager telling me the German people should have stood up to Hitler and stopped him. I pointed out that she was not even prepared to tell her manager the truth about the state of her project (running later than advertised of course).

All she had at stake was the size of her end of year bonus.

I remember reading about a man who voted against Hitler in the referendum to make him dictator. He was severely beaten, his house was burned down, and he wife and daughter were gang-raped.

Comment author: Jiro 25 June 2016 08:39:58PM 1 point [-]

The penalty for telling the truth about the state of your project is less than the penalty for defying Hitler, but the good done by telling the truth about the state of your project is also less than the good done by defying Hitler.

In response to Crazy Ideas Thread
Comment author: James_Miller 18 June 2016 12:33:18AM 8 points [-]

GiveWell should have book/movie/podcast/video game awards (like the Hugo award) open to voting for anyone who has given money through GiveWell in the past year.

Comment author: Jiro 20 June 2016 04:04:56PM 1 point [-]

Because the Hugo award has gone really well.

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