Comment author: Manfred 12 March 2013 03:43:24PM *  0 points [-]

it would not of its own do paperclip maximization as a goal, because this would be terribly stupid, philosophically.

My hope was to get you to support that claim in an inside-view way. Oh well.

Comment author: JonatasMueller 12 March 2013 05:20:50PM *  0 points [-]

Why it would not do paperclip (or random value) maximization as a goal is explained more at length in the article. There is more than one reason. We're considering a generally superintelligent agent, assuming above-human philosophical capacity. In terms of personal identity, there is a lack of personal identities, so it would be rational to take an objective, impersonal view, taking account of values and reasonings of relevant different beings. In terms of meta-ethics, there is moral realism and values can be reduced to the quality of conscious experience, so it would have this as its goal. If one takes moral anti-realism to be true, at least for this type of agent we are considering, a lack of real values would be understood as a lack of real goals, and could lead to the tentative goal of seeking more knowledge in order to find a real goal, or having no reason to do anything in particular (this is still susceptible to the considerations from personal identity). I argue against moral anti-realism.

Comment author: Elithrion 12 March 2013 04:44:40AM *  1 point [-]

Hm, sorry, it's looking increasingly difficult to reach a consensus on this, so I'm going to bow out after this post.

With that in mind, I'd like to say that what I have in mind when I say "an action is rational" is approximately "this action is the best one for achieving one's goals" (approximately because that ignores practical considerations like the cost of figuring out which action this is exactly). I also personally believe that insofar as ethics is worth talking about at all, it is simply the study of what we socially consider to be convenient to term good, not the search for an absolute, universal good, since such a good (almost certainly) does not exist. As such, the claim that you should always act ethically is not very convincing in my worldview (it is basically equivalent to the claim that you should try to benefit society and is similarly differently persuasive for different people). Instead, each individual should satisfy her own goals, which may be completely umm... orthogonal... to whatever we decide to use for "ethics". The class of agents that will indeed decide to care about the ethics we like seems like a tiny subset of all potential agents, as well as of all potential superintelligent agents (which is of course just a restatement of the thesis).

Consequently, to me, the idea that we should expect a superintelligence to figure out some absolute ethics (that probably don't exist) and decide that it should adhere to them looks fanciful.

Comment author: JonatasMueller 12 March 2013 10:55:39AM *  1 point [-]

I see. I think that ethics could be taken as, even individually, the formal definition of one's goals and how to reach them, although in the orthogonality thesis ethics is taken in a collective level. Since personal identities cannot be sustained by logic, the distinction between individual goals and societal goals becomes trivial, and both are mutually inclusive.

Comment author: Manfred 11 March 2013 10:51:49PM *  1 point [-]

Indeed, a robot could be built that makes paperclips or pretty much anything. For instance, a paperclip assembling machine. That's an issue of practical implementation and not what the essay has been about, as I mention in the first paragraph and concede in the last.

Well then, let's increase the problem to where it's meaningful, and take a look at that. What sort of cognitive and physical actions would make you think a robot is superintelligent? Discovery of new physics, modeling humans so precisely that it can predict us better than we can, making intricate plans that will work flawlessly?

What fails in the program when one tries to build a robot that takes both the paperclip-maximizing actions and superintelligent actions?

Comment author: JonatasMueller 12 March 2013 10:44:31AM *  1 point [-]

What sort of cognitive and physical actions would make you think a robot is superintelligent?

For general superintelligence, proving performance in all cognitive areas that surpasses the highest of any humans. This naturally includes philosophy, which is about the most essential type of reasoning.

What fails in the program when one tries to build a robot that takes both the paperclip-maximizing actions and superintelligent actions?

It could have a narrow superintelligence, like a calculating machine, surpassing human cognitive abilities in some areas but not in others. If it had a general superintelligence, then it would not of its own do paperclip maximization as a goal, because this would be terribly stupid, philosophically.

Comment author: Elithrion 11 March 2013 06:56:39PM 2 points [-]

Then your argument is circular/tautological. You define a "rational" action as one that "does that which ethically good", and then you suppose that a superintelligence must be very "rational". However, this is not the conventional usage of "rational" in economics or decision theory (and not on Less Wrong). Also, by this definition, I would not necessarily wish to be "rational", and the problem of making a superintelligence "rational" is exactly as hard, and basically equivalent to, making it "friendly".

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 07:12:07PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure I'm using rational in that sense, I could substitute "being rational" with "using reason", "thinking intelligently", "making sense", "being logical", what seems to follow from being generally superintelligent. Ethics is the study of defining what ought to be done and how to achieve it, so it seems to follow from general superintelligence as well. The trickier part seems to be defining ethics. Humans often act with motivations which are not based on formal ethics, but ethics is like a formal elaboration of what one's (or everyone's) motivations and actions ought to be.

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 11 March 2013 06:51:13PM 0 points [-]

I understand why those examples are wrong. Because I have certain beliefs (broadly, but not universally, shared). But I don't see how any of those beliefs can be logically deduced.

Quite a lot follows from "positive conscious experiences are intrinsically valuable", but that axiom won't be accepted unless you already partially agree with it anyway.

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 07:01:36PM *  2 points [-]

I don't think that someone can disagree with it (good conscious feelings are intrinsically good; bad conscious feelings are intrinsically bad), because it would be akin to disagreeing that, for instance, the color green feels greenish. Do you disagree with it?

Because I have certain beliefs (broadly, but not universally, shared). But I don't see how any of those beliefs can be logically deduced.

Can you elaborate? I don't understand... Many valid wants or beliefs can be ultimately reduced as to good and bad feelings, in the present or future, for oneself or for others, as instrumental values, such as peace, learning, curiosity, love, security, longevity, health, science...

Comment author: Elithrion 11 March 2013 06:16:13PM *  0 points [-]

I'm not convinced by that (specifically that feelings can be sorted into bad and good in a neat way and that we can agree on which ones are more bad/good), however that is still not my point. Sorry, I thought I was being clear, but apparently not.

You claim that a general superintelligence ought to care about all sorts of consciousnesses because it is very very intelligent (and understands what good/bad feelings are and the illusion of personal identities and whatnot). Why? Why wouldn't it only care about something like the stereotypical example of creating more paperclips?

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 06:42:56PM 1 point [-]

What is defined as ethically good is by definition what ought to be done, at least rationally. Some agents, such as humans, often don't act rationally, due to a conflict of reason with evolutionarily selected motivations, which have really their own evolutionary values in mind (e.g. have as many children as possible), not ours. This shouldn't happen for much more intelligent agents, with stronger rationality (and possibly a capability to self-modify).

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 11 March 2013 03:28:53PM 1 point [-]

Then how can wanting be wrong? They're there, they're conscious preferences (you can introspect and get them, just as liking), and they have as much empirical basis as liking.

And wanting can be seen as more fundamental - they are your preferences, and inform your actions (along with your world model), whereas using liking to take action involve having a (potentially flawed) mental model of what will increase your good experiences and diminish bad ones.

The game can be continued endlessly - what you're saying is that your moral system revolves around liking, and that the arguments that this should be so are convincing to you. But you can't convince wanters with the same argument - their convictions are different, and neither set of arguments are "logical". It becomes a taste-based debate.

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 06:32:41PM 1 point [-]

Sorry, I thought you already understood why wanting can be wrong.

Example 1: imagine a person named Eliezer walks to an ice cream stand, and picks a new flavor X. Eliezer wants to try the flavor X of ice cream. Eliezer buys it and eats it. The taste is awful and Eliezer vomits it. Eliezer concludes that wanting can be wrong and that it is different from liking in this sense.

Example 2: imagine Eliezer watched a movie in which some homophobic gangsters go about killing homosexuals. Eliezer gets inspired and wants to kill homosexuals too, so he picks a knife and finds a nice looking young man and prepares to torture and kill him. Eliezer looks at the muscular body of the young man, and starts to feel homosexual urges and desires, and instead he makes love with the homosexual young man. Eliezer concludes that he wanted something wrong and that he had been a bigot and homosexual all along, liking men, but not wanting to kill them.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 March 2013 03:48:59PM *  2 points [-]

But if we consider general superintelligences, then they could easily understand it and put it coherently into practice.

Yet, as the eminent philosopher Jos Whedon observed, "Yeah... but [they] don't care!"

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 06:15:42PM 0 points [-]

Their motivation (or what they care about) should be in line with their rationality. This doesn't happen with humans because we have evolutionarily selected and primitive motivations, coupled with a weak rationality, but should not happen with much more intelligent and designed (possibly self-modifying) agents. Logically, one should care about what one's rationality tells.

Comment author: Elithrion 11 March 2013 05:41:43PM 1 point [-]

I read Kaj Sotala's post, as you may surmise from the fact that I was the one who first linked (to a comment on it) in the grandparent. I also skimmed your article, and it seems equivalent to the idea of considering algorithmic identity or humans as optimizations processes or what-have-you (not sure if there's a specific term or post on it) that's pretty mainstream on LW, and with which I at least partially sympathise.

However, this has nothing to do with my objection. Let me rephrase in more general and philosophical terms, I guess. As far as I can tell, somewhere in your post you purport to solve the is-out problem. However, I do not find that any such solution follows from anything you say.

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 06:05:40PM 1 point [-]

We seem to be moving from personal identity to ethics. In ethics it is defined that good is what ought to be, and bad is what ought not to be. Ethics is about defining values (what is good and ought to be), and how to cause them.

Good and bad feelings are good and bad as direct data, being direct perceptions, and this quality they have is not an inference. Their good and bad quality is directly accessible by consciousness, as data with the highest epistemic certainty. Being data they are "is", and being good and bad, under the above definition of ethics, they are "ought" too. This is a special status that only good and bad feelings have, and no other values do.

Comment author: Stuart_Armstrong 11 March 2013 02:14:29PM 0 points [-]

Liking can be misleading in terms of motivation or in terms of the external object which is liked, but it cannot be misleading or wrong in itself, in that it is a good feeling.

"Wanting can be misleading in terms of the long term or in terms of the internal emotional state with which it is connected, but it cannot be misleading or wrong in itself, in that it is a clear preference."

Comment author: JonatasMueller 11 March 2013 02:28:39PM *  1 point [-]

Indeed, but what separates wanting and liking is that preferences can be wrong, they require no empirical basis, while liking in itself cannot be wrong, and it has an empirical basis.

When rightfully wanting something, that something gets a justification. Liking, understood as good feelings, is a justification, while another is avoiding bad feelings, and this can be causally extended to include instrumental actions that will cause this in indirect ways.

View more: Prev | Next