Comment author: ksvanhorn 11 December 2011 12:17:00AM 0 points [-]

I've been struggling for some time with the issue of how to know what and whom to believe when it comes to lifestyle medicine (the effects of nutrition, supplements, exercise, etc. on health on longevity)... and it has occurred to me that I'm ignoring the elephant in the living room. As I understand it, the one non-obvious lifestyle change for which there appears to be good evidence of a very strong effect on longevity is caloric restriction.

When I first heard about CR over twenty years ago there were already decades of research demonstrating its apparently universal efficacy in extending the lives of mice and other short-lived creatures, and the case for CR has only gotten stronger since then as research has progressed to longer-lived creatures. It is arguably misguided to spend a lot of effort trying to figure out the right supplements to take (given the equivocal nature of much of the evidence) if you haven't yet made CR part of your lifestyle.

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 11 December 2011 07:26:54AM *  0 points [-]
  1. Longevity is not the only factor of interest.

  2. There's CR and CR. A paleo lifestyle will greatly increase natural tolerance to fasting, leading to longer periods without meals, up to one day at times. Deliberate CR is something different.

  3. CR doesn't show up among blue zones or the world's oldest people. Rather, the opposite - enjoyment of life.

  4. I read a chimp study that showed CR chimps lived longer but had terrible quality of life compared to the fat happy sly contented ad libitum eaters. That suggests it's a tradeoff between living longer slowly and living faster richly.

  5. Longevity is extremely hard to study in humans and there are many better-established effects on health from altering biological inputs than anything related to longevity.

  6. Most importantly, cages and unnatural diets may tend to exaggerate the positive effects of CR on animals. Now interestingly, many humans live in the modern equivalent of cages and eat highly unnatural diets...

Therefore, I reject your thesis that rejecting CR and pursuing supplementation is misguided.

Comment author: PhilosophyTutor 08 December 2011 04:38:28AM *  5 points [-]

My prior probability that any diet consisting solely of rice, water and any one X is a bad idea is very high. I'd want to see very strong evidence that scallops really do contain everything a human needs to remain healthy.

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 08 December 2011 07:47:22AM 1 point [-]

Many of the other extreme elimination diets I tried showed obvious signs of micronutrient deficiency. For example, I tried bread and water, lean meat and water, etc. It's easy to recognize signs of deficiency - fatigue, cravings, etc.

But I wouldn't say scallops have everything. I did lose weight. I think you'd have to add in some fish to get a complete diet. Not so much for vitamins or minerals, but for something related to satiety and macronutrient composition. It could be insufficient fats/oils, or maybe you can't get enough protein because it triggers satiety too fast due to impending overdose of some micronutrient. Or maybe it's just the taste.

I've been going for many months on a diet of solely rice, fish, scallops, rice and shrimp. Since I'm still healthy and productive, there can't be any short or medium-term deficiency there.

In general, however, a meat-only elimination diet works. See the Stefansson trial, and his study from living with Eskimos. Meat with sufficient fat on it is all that is needed to sustain human life, and it can even come from a single animal, as long as that animal isn't being grain fed from mineral depleted soil.

Thus it's not so much surprising that rice, water, and any X meat is sufficient for health. Rather, the extreme positive biological reaction to micronutrient overload from high scallops intake is what's surprising.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 07 December 2011 11:07:19AM 2 points [-]

"Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." -- Michael Pollan, In Defense of Food, a book which I have not actually read, but which pretty much describes my attitude to all of the diet fads around (including geek fads like paleo), and my actual eating habits.

If you eat paleoish with 5-6 servings of diverse fruits and vegetables daily, you might only be deficient in [list of nine (ten in women) nutrients]

And paleo is "great"?

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 07 December 2011 01:48:04PM 0 points [-]

Paleo is a big tent with many suboptimal stalls.

Plant nutrition is more difficult to optimize than animal sources. Plants are not strictly necessary, and become completely optional once comfortable starch intake is achieved.

Yes, paleo is great. No, it is not a fad, although it contains various fads.

Fad: "a temporary fashion, notion, manner of conduct, etc., especially one followed enthusiastically by a group."

Paleo is no more a fad than are herbal remedies. Neither are temporary phenomena.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 December 2011 03:58:13AM 1 point [-]

I think humans are well adapted to a shoreline diet due to bottleneck event(s) caused by some natural catastrophe that rendered extinct those humans without access to shorelines.

I think you're overreaching the idea of adaptation there. Scallops and other bivalve molluscs contain a lot of dietary protein, and also a lot of nutrients we need; part of the reason we need many of those specific nutrients is that unlike even many of our closest relatives, we can't synthesize them internally. So it shouldn't be surprising that a food rich in those things, with very few "empty" calories and which is not too calorically dense would be beneficial...

In response to comment by [deleted] on Announcing the Quantified Health Prize
Comment author: JosephBuchignani 07 December 2011 04:28:02AM -1 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 05 December 2011 09:40:15PM 2 points [-]

I love scallops, but I've never known someone to eat the whole animal. Unless you collect them yourself, I don't think you even could; I've only ever seen the adductor muscles for sale.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Announcing the Quantified Health Prize
Comment author: JosephBuchignani 06 December 2011 01:04:34AM 2 points [-]

Yes, you're right, I was wrong about that

Comment author: Alicorn 05 December 2011 09:57:49PM -2 points [-]

Clams?

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 06 December 2011 01:01:37AM 0 points [-]

Yep, should work

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 05 December 2011 04:36:03PM 1 point [-]

How big cognitive gains are you talking about? IQ tests have poor test-retest reliability. Have you ever taken an IQ test? eg, SATs. If you did on your prior diet, you could take it again. Do you think that your peak performance has improved or just average?

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 05 December 2011 09:41:49PM 0 points [-]

I scored 1560 / 34 on SAT / ACT and 99th percentile on GMAT as well, if I recall correctly. I've never taken an IQ test. I was born in 1984, so by the time I took them the SAT's were less g-loaded.

I would say average, peak and trough performance all greatly improved, but I can't quantify it. I felt like a genius, relative to where I had been, and much quicker mentally.

I have no way of returning to my previous diet right now, so I can't rigorously test this.

Comment author: Alicorn 05 December 2011 05:08:37PM 1 point [-]

Are there other foods with this property? I hate scallops. (And shrimp.)

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 05 December 2011 09:35:30PM 2 points [-]

In theory, any shellfish should do it. Shrimp don't have this property. Shrimp are scavengers, whereas shellfish filter water. The latter activity is what creates the high mineral content.

Comment author: MixedNuts 05 December 2011 07:34:39AM 0 points [-]

That sounds extremely expensive. (And I know where to get cheap frozen scallops.) What's the next best cheap diet?

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 05 December 2011 08:33:01AM *  -1 points [-]

Yes, although hunger decreased dramatically, so I didn't eat nearly as much scallops as you would think. Scallops have a major impact on food satiety and cravings, I've found. I suspect we tend to overconsume food to compensate for low density of key micronutrients.

My long term stable diet is 1. scallops daily, one package; 2. unlimited white rice; 3. lean fish - cod, perch or pollock; 4. shrimp for flavor/texture.

Diluting the scallop content brings down cost. The enhancement effect isn't quite as extreme, but it's still very good.

This diet has almost no fat or any other difficult to digest substances due to my intraheptic cholestasis. If you are digestively normal, you could fill out the rest of the diet with any paleo ingredients, as long as you eat scallops daily.

I believe this delivers superior performance to the typical paleo grass-fed organ meat route, but I cannot personally test this due to my limitations. I think humans are well adapted to a shoreline diet due to bottleneck event(s) caused by some natural catastrophe that rendered extinct those humans without access to shorelines. If you've watched Survivor, you know that any bipedal idiot can gather shellfish on the beach. Ancient shellfish middens indicate that they were a major food source.

Comment author: PhilosophyTutor 05 December 2011 05:30:02AM 1 point [-]

The wikipedia link you provided makes it clear that micronutrient deficiency is a serious problem in the developing world but I could not see any factual support in that link for the claim that micronutrients in general have an interesting dose/response curve, or that micronutrient deficiency in the developed world is any kind of problem for the majority of people. You might want to edit that link to reflect the fact that it does not support the claim "actually being true".

There is some expert support for your view but there is also excellent reason for caution with regard to any claims you might hear about micronutrient supplementation. This is a very popular area with scammers, cranks and the deluded.

I'd be interested in seeing any properly blinded and controlled studies that show that micronutrient intake over the daily requirements has meaningful benefits - if I can gain a few IQ points by eating more fruit and vegies I'll take that deal.

Comment author: JosephBuchignani 05 December 2011 08:26:14AM 1 point [-]

I have experienced cognitive gains that would almost certainly show up on IQ tests by eating better animal sources of micronutrients. Studies would be great.

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